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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Anarchy Vs Theft by Government (Read 381 times)
kaz
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Re: Anarchy Vs Theft by Government
Reply #50 - Feb 6th, 2018 at 10:28am
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BobK71 wrote on Feb 6th, 2018 at 9:59am:
Still, something has to enforce the judgment, so the loser of the case can't just defy the court.  Unfortunately, granting the government a monopoly on violence may be the only way to go.

It is when that monopoly is leveraged to 'provide extra services', and especially the management of money, that things become problematic.


Yes, I agree with that.  I'm also not an anarchist
  

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Re: Anarchy Vs Theft by Government
Reply #51 - Feb 6th, 2018 at 12:31pm
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BobK71 wrote on Feb 6th, 2018 at 9:59am:
Mine too -- I think the jury system was a great innovation for decentralizing power.

Still, something has to enforce the judgment, so the loser of the case can't just defy the court.  Unfortunately, granting the government a monopoly on violence may be the only way to go.

It is when that monopoly is leveraged to 'provide extra services', and especially the management of money, that things become problematic.


Libertarians can't just condemn government without offering a workable alternative Bob. Private business can't do the job because of bias always seep in to destroy any fairness.

If corrupt government is amply guarded against then the system as it stands can't be replaced with something else. There's a reason why it's never happened of course but this forum is a place for libertarians to explore other possibilities.

That's not being done to any real extent because no actual alternatives are being offered. So maybe this will motivate some people to start offering something that can work?

I'm facing it from a positive POV but I have little confidence so far. I think the answers can only be found in real libertarianism, which I will define to suit each new suggestion.
  
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Re: Anarchy Vs Theft by Government
Reply #52 - Feb 7th, 2018 at 6:12am
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Don_G wrote on Feb 6th, 2018 at 12:31pm:
Libertarians can't just condemn government without offering a workable alternative Bob. Private business can't do the job because of bias always seep in to destroy any fairness.

If corrupt government is amply guarded against then the system as it stands can't be replaced with something else. There's a reason why it's never happened of course but this forum is a place for libertarians to explore other possibilities.

That's not being done to any real extent because no actual alternatives are being offered. So maybe this will motivate some people to start offering something that can work?

I'm facing it from a positive POV but I have little confidence so far. I think the answers can only be found in real libertarianism, which I will define to suit each new suggestion.
Most libertarians think the system of government designed by our Constitution is a very, very good "alternative" solution to unlimited government of any sort, even the sort we have now which claims to have a grant of unlimited power from the Constitution.
  
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BobK71
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Re: Anarchy Vs Theft by Government
Reply #53 - Feb 7th, 2018 at 10:06am
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Don_G wrote on Feb 5th, 2018 at 6:33pm:
I think libertarians are reacting against the obvious need for government to step in and maintain that the wealth is shared. The need in  the 21st. century is going to dictate more equality in order to make sure our world's resources go around.


Inequality is a big and real problem today.  'Capitalism' is broken because, it's not real capitalism to begin with, when the global elites control money and distort the entire economy just to maintain the artificial confidence in their money, debt, real estate, etc.

That said, at least in principle, I can't agree that wealth should, a priori, be equally distributed.  People have different levels of talent and work ethic.  Results cannot be equal if you want to incentivize contribution.
  
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Re: Anarchy Vs Theft by Government
Reply #54 - Feb 7th, 2018 at 12:06pm
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BobK71 wrote on Feb 7th, 2018 at 10:06am:
Inequality is a big and real problem today.  'Capitalism' is broken because, it's not real capitalism to begin with, when the global elites control money and distort the entire economy just to maintain the artificial confidence in their money, debt, real estate, etc.

That said, at least in principle, I can't agree that wealth should, a priori, be equally distributed.  People have different levels of talent and work ethic.  Results cannot be equal if you want to incentivize contribution.


I've never said that wealth should be equally distributed Bob, and not even 'distributed'. I've always maintained that government must stop giving a leg up to the very wealthy.

That is just one form of corruption and it's quite undeniable that politicians are afraid of applying any amount of fairness because of big money lobbying.

If libertarians were sincere about stopping government lobbying corruption then they would begin to concentrate on methods to stop it. But rather, they dwell on just more 'pie in the sky'. If there's any potential for libertarianism, it's being wasted with their delusions of what 'could' be.

Of interest on this forum is the new guy's ideas that are close to being on target, but motivated by his religious convictions. He's talking 'socially responsible capitalism' but under a different name, and he fears getting into it in any detail because there's a socialist boogeyman under his bed it seems.

Fwiw, he claims religious belief to be communism, or something of the sort?

Strange, but I think we're hearing of some of the millenials starting to veer toward not being afraid of 'social' responsibility in government.

Quote:
That said, at least in principle, I can't agree that wealth should, a priori, be equally distributed.


I would suggest that's  what's happening already is there are mechanisms in play that make sure no fair distribution is obtained, but Americans don't seem to be able to grasp that concept. No matter, the results are too obvious.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Anarchy Vs Theft by Government
Reply #55 - Feb 7th, 2018 at 1:23pm
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Don_G wrote on Feb 7th, 2018 at 12:06pm:
If libertarians were sincere about stopping government lobbying corruption then they would begin to concentrate on methods to stop it.
Lobbying for favors is only productive if elected officials are willing to sell favors.
The solution is to prosecute the people selling the favors.
  
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Re: Anarchy Vs Theft by Government
Reply #56 - Feb 13th, 2018 at 4:38pm
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Don_G wrote on Feb 7th, 2018 at 12:06pm:
I've never said that wealth should be equally distributed Bob, and not even 'distributed'. I've always maintained that government must stop giving a leg up to the very wealthy.

That is just one form of corruption and it's quite undeniable that politicians are afraid of applying any amount of fairness because of big money lobbying.


Thanks for the clarification.

Don_G wrote on Feb 7th, 2018 at 12:06pm:
If libertarians were sincere about stopping government lobbying corruption then they would begin to concentrate on methods to stop it. But rather, they dwell on just more 'pie in the sky'. If there's any potential for libertarianism, it's being wasted with their delusions of what 'could' be.


One great impediment to any sort of action is that the modern empire is good at distributing the loot widely but proportionately so that the top elites still get the lion's share, while enough others benefit enough that meaningful reform is not close to successful.  The entire Western citizenry are beneficiaries to some degree, for example.

No doubt, it's still theft on a global scale, but the top elites are doing it smarter than a lot of people realize.  And the way they're doing it, they don't need too many overt conspiracies.  They just need to control money and a few other key systems.

Don_G wrote on Feb 7th, 2018 at 12:06pm:
Of interest on this forum is the new guy's ideas that are close to being on target, but motivated by his religious convictions. He's talking 'socially responsible capitalism' but under a different name, and he fears getting into it in any detail because there's a socialist boogeyman under his bed it seems.

Fwiw, he claims religious belief to be communism, or something of the sort?

Strange, but I think we're hearing of some of the millenials starting to veer toward not being afraid of 'social' responsibility in government.

I'll look for this new guy.

Don_G wrote on Feb 7th, 2018 at 12:06pm:
I would suggest that's  what's happening already is there are mechanisms in play that make sure no fair distribution is obtained, but Americans don't seem to be able to grasp that concept. No matter, the results are too obvious.


Absolutely.  There are a few major rackets in America.  Among them are banking, defense, higher education, health care, and real estate.  (Most of perfectly good land is forbidden for residential development, to prop up property prices.)

As I always say, the idea is to use state power to ensure lots of money flows to insiders, and spread the benefits around so entire industries' employments and entire groups' asset values depend on the state support.  If this is done at the expense of society at large, the costs are too diffuse for powerful enough opposition to gather.
  
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kaz
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Re: Anarchy Vs Theft by Government
Reply #57 - Feb 13th, 2018 at 4:57pm
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Don_G wrote on Feb 7th, 2018 at 12:06pm:
I've never said that wealth should be equally distributed Bob, and not even 'distributed'. I've always maintained that government must stop giving a leg up to the very wealthy.

That is just one form of corruption and it's quite undeniable that politicians are afraid of applying any amount of fairness because of big money lobbying.

If libertarians were sincere about stopping government lobbying corruption then they would begin to concentrate on methods to stop it. But rather, they dwell on just more 'pie in the sky'. If there's any potential for libertarianism, it's being wasted with their delusions of what 'could' be.

Of interest on this forum is the new guy's ideas that are close to being on target, but motivated by his religious convictions. He's talking 'socially responsible capitalism' but under a different name, and he fears getting into it in any detail because there's a socialist boogeyman under his bed it seems.

Fwiw, he claims religious belief to be communism, or something of the sort?

Strange, but I think we're hearing of some of the millenials starting to veer toward not being afraid of 'social' responsibility in government.


I would suggest that's  what's happening already is there are mechanisms in play that make sure no fair distribution is obtained, but Americans don't seem to be able to grasp that concept. No matter, the results are too obvious.


More BS class welfare from the ...

...

[note to self.  Insert troll video here]
  

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Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Jeff
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Re: Anarchy Vs Theft by Government
Reply #58 - Feb 14th, 2018 at 5:16pm
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Don_G wrote on Feb 7th, 2018 at 12:06pm:
I've never said that wealth should be equally distributed Bob, and not even 'distributed'. I've always maintained that government must stop giving a leg up to the very wealthy.

That is just one form of corruption and it's quite undeniable that politicians are afraid of applying any amount of fairness because of big money lobbying.
You've identified a very serious problem.

Giving politicians any power at all is extremely dangerous.

Giving them the power to decide what is "fair" and apply it is suicidal for Liberty and guaranteed to produce the corruption you mention.
  
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