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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Beings Without Rights (Read 953 times)
kaz
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Re: Beings Without Rights
Reply #70 - Feb 23rd, 2018 at 4:28pm
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 23rd, 2018 at 4:07pm:
If you have rights, you have the right to all three. I agree with that.

I demonstrated that self-defence is not possible without self-ownership because you can't defend other peoples' stuff. (Unless they want you to.)

If you don't have rights (as I don't) you don't keep the right of self-defence. In fact, you can't. It doesn't work to have self-defence and not self-ownership. I just proved that.


I agree with your point that those three things are not mutually exclusive
  

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Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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SkyChief
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Re: Beings Without Rights
Reply #71 - Feb 23rd, 2018 at 4:30pm
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 23rd, 2018 at 3:15pm:
See how self-defence breaks down if there's no self-ownership?

Fine. 

I'm having a problem with the flawed premise of this question in the OP:

"Do sentient beings without rights have an obligation to respect the rights of those who do have them?"

There is no such thing as a sentient being without rights.  I think we agree that all sentient beings (no matter what planet they're from) have at least some inherent rights [self-defense, self-ownership] so the question itself is illogical.
  
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Sicklers Dink
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Re: Beings Without Rights
Reply #72 - Feb 23rd, 2018 at 4:30pm
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kaz wrote on Feb 23rd, 2018 at 4:28pm:
I agree with your point that those three things are not mutually exclusive


Just love the way Oppo keeps you on the hook pig. Pretty desperate for some attention?
  
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kaz
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Re: Beings Without Rights
Reply #73 - Feb 23rd, 2018 at 4:34pm
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Sicklers Dink wrote on Feb 23rd, 2018 at 4:30pm:
Just love the way Oppo keeps you on the hook pig. Pretty desperate for some attention?


Troll discussion:

This post was not identified as trolling because it's better described as flaming.

Anyone disagree?
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Jeff
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Re: Beings Without Rights
Reply #74 - Feb 23rd, 2018 at 4:50pm
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 23rd, 2018 at 3:15pm:
I do not get to defend somebody else's chicken. This holds true whether I'm the chicken or not. It's somebody else's chicken = I can't defend it.

You are correct that self ownership and the right of self defense are basic, but wrong to say that I can't defend your child against kidnappers or your brother from physical assault or my friends house from being robbed while she's on vacation.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Beings Without Rights
Reply #75 - Feb 23rd, 2018 at 11:48pm
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SkyChief wrote on Feb 23rd, 2018 at 4:30pm:
There is no such thing as a sentient being without rights.


I am a sentient being without rights. Jeff and Merkelstan (and me, if I count) all agree that I do not have rights.

Rothbard uses a hypothetical example but agrees that sentience does not automatically grant rights.

Jeff wrote on Feb 23rd, 2018 at 4:50pm:
You are correct that self ownership and the right of self defense are basic, but wrong to say that I can't defend your child against kidnappers or your brother from physical assault or my friends house from being robbed while she's on vacation.


You're deliberately ignoring where I am conceding these sorts of exceptions. Thank Athena there are people like Skychief who actually read my posts instead of just (unsuccessfully I might add) attempting to nitpick them.

Better yet, I thank Skychief. He's the one doing it.

Anyway, here's the post where I admitted the thing you're trying to nitpick me for not admitting.

The Opposition wrote on Feb 23rd, 2018 at 4:07pm:
I demonstrated that self-defence is not possible without self-ownership because you can't defend other peoples' stuff. (Unless they want you to.)
  

Making Sci-Fi great again since 2063.

Not taking Jeff seriously until he admits this is animal abuse (which he says should be illegal): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE-IT7_CaE4
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SkyChief
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Re: Beings Without Rights
Reply #76 - Feb 24th, 2018 at 4:06am
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 23rd, 2018 at 11:48pm:
I am a sentient being without rights. Jeff and Merkelstan (and me, if I count) all agree that I do not have rights.

LoL.    Grin   If you can draw a breath, you have [at least some] rights.

The Opposition wrote on Feb 23rd, 2018 at 11:48pm:
Rothbard uses a hypothetical example but agrees that sentience does not automatically grant rights.

What a shame Rothbard can't face reality.   We've heard similar nonsensical arguments from flat-earthers.  They reject reality and make laughable arguments to prove a world which cannot exist.  What a waste of grey matter.

Up is down. left is right, black is white.  They fabricate fantastic arguments to prove the unprovable. There is no choice but to laugh at them.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Beings Without Rights
Reply #77 - Feb 24th, 2018 at 7:49am
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 23rd, 2018 at 11:48pm:
I am a sentient being without rights. Jeff and Merkelstan (and me, if I count) all agree that I do not have rights.


You're deliberately ignoring where I am conceding these sorts of exceptions.

Even wild beasts have rights of self defense, it's built in as a mechanism to try to perpetuate their species by keeping themselves alive, and it's a right that continues to exist in humans.

Many predators exercise the same sort of unprotected property rights that barbarian tribes of humans did and do, they claim territory by killing or driving away others when they can, or get driven away themselves.

Human rights as civilized people have come to see them depend mostly on people being civilized, by which I mean they understand that other humans have the same rights they do, and that to behave like a barbarian or a predatory animal and take the lives and property of others by force or fraud is wrong.

You have no more rights than an animal, because your understanding of rights is at the level of a predatory animal. You are a trained tiger, not killing and eating it's trainer because it has learned it will be punished and/or rewarded for acting as if it actually respected the rights of it's trainer, which it doesn't. Like you, a trained tiger can't understand and internalize that others have rights, so it has only animal rights itself.

  
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kaz
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Re: Beings Without Rights
Reply #78 - Feb 24th, 2018 at 8:38am
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 23rd, 2018 at 11:48pm:
I am a sentient being without rights. Jeff and Merkelstan (and me, if I count) all agree that I do not have rights.

Rothbard uses a hypothetical example but agrees that sentience does not automatically grant rights


Not exercising rights is not equivalent to not having them.  Sorry.

And that an anarchist, a drunk and an authoritarian leftist agree with you isn't a meaningful argument
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Jeff
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Re: Beings Without Rights
Reply #79 - Feb 24th, 2018 at 12:46pm
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kaz wrote on Feb 24th, 2018 at 8:38am:
Not exercising rights is not equivalent to not having them.  Sorry.

And that an anarchist, a drunk and an authoritarian leftist agree with you isn't a meaningful argument
You don't like my argument that the possession of rights requires that you respect the equal rights of others?
  
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