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Snarky Sack
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Re: Why is persuasion a better alternative to coercion?
Reply #30 - Feb 14th, 2018 at 7:34pm
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Jeff wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 7:02pm:
You never looked into his record as Governor of New Mexico?

Part of the idea of reducing wasteful and unnecessary government is to reduce the need for taxation. Johnson wanted to do that on a much larger scale than the legislature would agree to. He wasn't picking nits.


Gary Johnson believes that every shopkeeper should be coerced into becoming a tax collector and that everyone who buys anything should be forced to pay those taxes. 

I was keeping in mind this statement:


Jeff wrote Today at 8:34am:
Quote:
Libertarians would generally answer this by saying that coercion is wrong.


On a  pragmatic level, it is more socially responsible for government to tax and spend far less than our current government does.  But that debate only arises among people who have already accepted the premise that government should coerce individuals into giving it money or working for it for the good of the collective.   

We can debate about which percent of sales prices should be taxed and how the revenue should be spent, but arguing the morality of either end of that spectrum makes no sense. 

Persuasion gets things done.  Once you accept that pragmatism over-rides morality, you can't claim any moral high ground.  Communists are no less moral than Fair Taxers on that score.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Why is persuasion a better alternative to coercion?
Reply #31 - Feb 14th, 2018 at 7:36pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 7:34pm:
Gary Johnson believes that every shopkeeper should be coerced into becoming a tax collector and that everyone who buys anything should be forced to pay those taxes. 



On a  pragmatic level, it is more socially responsible for government to tax and spend far less than our current government does.  But that debate only arises among people who have already accepted the premise that government should coerce individuals into giving it money or working for it for the good of the collective.   


You're an anarchist? Another one?
  
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Re: Why is persuasion a better alternative to coercion?
Reply #32 - Feb 14th, 2018 at 7:40pm
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Jeff wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 7:36pm:
You're an anarchist? Another one?


No, I want a government.  I just don't want it to be a kleptocracy. 


  

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Re: Why is persuasion a better alternative to coercion?
Reply #33 - Feb 14th, 2018 at 7:55pm
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 4:05pm:
Well, like any moral philosophers, they do believe it's wrong.

The issue is, they construct right and wrong in such a way that it brings them the greatest personal advantage.

The welfare queen wants more redistribution because fairness is what's right, and the rich man demands that government protect his vast holdings for free because taxes are theft.


The rich are often incredibly generous and would help that welfare queen voluntarily if she was truly in need of help.  Their help would be socially responsible in that they would likely require her to make an effort to become self-sufficient.  or . . . they might be even more indulging than our current welfare system.  I would disagree with their doing that, but it would be their money so their right to do it.

The rich would also be the first to contribute to government if government were only in the business of protecting rights, including property rights.  Since they have the most to lose, they would be motivated to contribute the most.  Successful politicians are almost by definition good at persuading the wealthy to make contributions.  Surely, they are up to the task of funding an extremely limited government through persuasion rather than force.

  

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kaz
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Re: Why is persuasion a better alternative to coercion?
Reply #34 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 8:34am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 7:34pm:
Gary Johnson believes that every shopkeeper should be coerced into becoming a tax collector


I try to have serious discussion with you, but you want to be a dick.

1)  We are a tax collector NOW

2)  We collect way more than sales taxes now

3)  Here's burnsred's help and concern for us

today

1)  We collect and process federal, state and local withholdings, FICA taxes, unemployment taxes for our employees

2)  We pay corporate taxes, business property taxes, business licenses and other various government taxes and fees at all three levels

3)  I'm an MBA in finance and did my own bookkeeping, but even I had to hire an accountant every year to take all my books and calculate how much tax I owe.  I still do even though I sold my business a year and a half ago and will have to continue to do so for at least three more years

4)  Note in 3 that means I also have to give the government every financial aspect of my business which is none of their fvcking business, but they force me to disclose it to them at the point of a gun

5)  Ditto personal taxes on both processing and paying them and government at gunpoint forcing me to disclose every aspect of my financial life to them which is none of their crappity smacking business

6)  Oh, and WE COLLECT SALES TAXES IN ADDITION TO THAT NOW

Burnsred comes along and says oh, I oppose a sales tax that would replace all those things because I don't want to turn you into a tax collector.

Thanks, guy!  And fvck the shit out of you too
  

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kaz
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Re: Why is persuasion a better alternative to coercion?
Reply #35 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 8:38am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 7:55pm:
The rich are often incredibly generous and would help that welfare queen voluntarily if she was truly in need of help


Absolutely.  The main difference is that the rich would want to help her in a way that gets her off dependency and supporting herself.  Politicians want her to remain dependent, so they design the programs to achieve that


Snarky Sack wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 7:55pm:
The rich would also be the first to contribute to government if government were only in the business of protecting rights, including property rights.  Since they have the most to lose, they would be motivated to contribute the most.  Successful politicians are almost by definition good at persuading the wealthy to make contributions.  Surely, they are up to the task of funding an extremely limited government through persuasion rather than force.



It's even more basic than that.  The bible got tithing right.  It's in our nature that paying 10% overhead to society is fair and reasonable.  Every major empire in the world grew at tax rates of 10% or less.  No one avoids taxes.  Every major empire fell with tax rates over 10% as politicians became greedier and greedier as has happened in Don's country
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Jeff
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Re: Why is persuasion a better alternative to coercion?
Reply #36 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 9:50am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 7:40pm:
No, I want a government.  I just don't want it to be a kleptocracy. 


States currently force businesses to collect sales taxes. Are you claiming that makes state governments kleptocracies?
  
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Re: Why is persuasion a better alternative to coercion?
Reply #37 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 9:58am
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kaz wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 8:34am:
I try to have serious discussion with you, but you want to be a dick.


The old Kaz is back!
Quote:
1)  We are a tax collector NOW

2)  We collect way more than sales taxes now

3)  Here's burnsred's help and concern for us

today

1)  We collect and process federal, state and local withholdings, FICA taxes, unemployment taxes for our employees

2)  We pay corporate taxes, business property taxes, business licenses and other various government taxes and fees at all three levels

3)  I'm an MBA in finance and did my own bookkeeping, but even I had to hire an accountant every year to take all my books and calculate how much tax I owe.  I still do even though I sold my business a year and a half ago and will have to continue to do so for at least three more years

4)  Note in 3 that means I also have to give the government every financial aspect of my business which is none of their fvcking business, but they force me to disclose it to them at the point of a gun

5)  Ditto personal taxes on both processing and paying them and government at gunpoint forcing me to disclose every aspect of my financial life to them which is none of their crappity smacking business

6)  Oh, and WE COLLECT SALES TAXES IN ADDITION TO THAT NOW

Burnsred comes along and says oh, I oppose a sales tax that would replace all those things because I don't want to turn you into a tax collector.


That's a lot of wind to say ~we already have to collect taxes.~

Yes, we already have to collect taxes.  If your shop has gas pumps in front if it, you already collect federal taxes that Mr. Tax-cut Trump wants to double.  I get that.

My point was that the Gary Johnson "libertarian" plan is just another way for us to be forced to do that.   Therefore it does not honor the non-aggression principle and it advocates strongly for the initiation of force by government.

On a practical level, a national sales tax would be much, much better than the mess we have now.  On a moral level, there would be zero difference.


Quote:
Thanks, guy!  And fvck the shit out of you too


Welcome back Kaz.  Your intellectual discourse adds to the high quality of our discussions!

  

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Re: Why is persuasion a better alternative to coercion?
Reply #38 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:01am
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kaz wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 8:38am:
It's even more basic than that.  The bible got tithing right.  It's in our nature that paying 10% overhead to society is fair and reasonable.  Every major empire in the world grew at tax rates of 10% or less.  No one avoids taxes.  Every major empire fell with tax rates over 10% as politicians became greedier and greedier as has happened in Don's country
Not being religious, I don't have opinions about tithing to your Church one way or another except to say that some people can afford it, and some people can't. If you think God demands it of you whether you can afford it or not, that's a problem for you to deal with... Besides, I think tithing was an invention of the Priests, they being the one's who took the money and decided how to spend it.

I agree that the minimum of taxes necessary to support the minimum of legitimate government functions is best, but think a rich country with a free economy can do that with much less than 10%.

I do not agree that taking 10% of everyone's wages, salaries and/or incomes is the best way to do it, or that it qualifies as legal taxation under our Constitution.


  
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Re: Why is persuasion a better alternative to coercion?
Reply #39 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 10:03am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 9:58am:
On a practical level, a national sales tax would be much, much better than the mess we have now. 
Could you point to a real world example or two of countries that currently have a national sales tax?
  
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