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SnarkySack
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Re: Only Government Can Bring You a Holocoust
Reply #10 - Feb 11th, 2018 at 6:46pm
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 11th, 2018 at 6:07pm:
I was thinking about this last night, and slavery comes to mind as a counterpoint. While it is true that slavery as an institution was at least not acted against by government, the act of capturing, transporting, and selling slaves was a hugely capitalist endeavour that sustained the trade triangle in the 1800s.

Slaves would be bought in Africa, then the merchant ships would sail to America.

They loaded off the slaves in America, and stocked up on raw goods like sugar, coffee, tobacco, and rice.

The ships would then sail to Europe to purchase fine finished goods such as cloth. Then they would then sail again, and trade these fine goods for slaves again in Africa.


It is true that slavery was an institution created and operated by profit-seekers.  But it was only possible because governments made a conscious decision to refuse to perform its one and only legitimate function which is to protect its citizens from having physical force used on them by aggressors.

President Washington recruited riders and personally saddled up to go after whiskey producers who refused to pay a tax.  I'm sure he would have done at least as much if there had been a slave rebellion in any of the states.  Lincoln would have used his huge conscript army to suppress any slave rebellion in Union-loyal states. 

Slavery isn't a government invention, admittedly.  But it isn't possible without at least the passive cooperation of government and it usually has active cooperation of government.

  

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The Opposition
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Re: Only Government Can Bring You a Holocoust
Reply #11 - Feb 11th, 2018 at 7:01pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Feb 11th, 2018 at 6:46pm:
It is true that slavery was an institution created and operated by profit-seekers.  But it was only possible because governments made a conscious decision to refuse to perform its one and only legitimate function which is to protect its citizens from having physical force used on them by aggressors.


First of all, you're nudging the bar a bit from the original post. You implied that only government could commit such an atrocity, not that only government could allow such an atrocity.

At first glance, the message seems very true. Murder on that scale is hugely expensive and a good Ferengi would never do it, because there's no profit in it.

I once read something about how much it actually cost to kill all those Jews, and I remember the inflation-adjusted amount turning my stomach. It was a lot. The thing is, even if you dispose of human remains in the most efficient and least respectful way possible, that shit has to be burned. If you don't do this bare minimum, everyone will get sick and die. The danger human remains present is actually pretty frightening, as is the cost of dealing with it.

Only government could afford to be this wasteful and kill people on this kind of scale.

SnarkySack wrote on Feb 11th, 2018 at 6:46pm:
President Washington recruited riders and personally saddled up to go after whiskey producers who refused to pay a tax.  I'm sure he would have done at least as much if there had been a slave rebellion in any of the states.  Lincoln would have used his huge conscript army to suppress any slave rebellion in Union-loyal states. 

Slavery isn't a government invention, admittedly.  But it isn't possible without at least the passive cooperation of government and it usually has active cooperation of government.


That is logically untrue since slavery is possible without government.

https://www.globalslaveryindex.org/country/somalia/
Quote:
Somalia is one of a group of 5 countries, assessed to have the highest rates of modern slavery in Sub-Saharan Africa. These countries included Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria and Yemen. The forms of modern slavery prevalent in Somalia include the use of child soldiers in armed conflict, child marriage, forced labour, and commercial sexual exploitation.


Emphasis added.
  

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SnarkySack
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Re: Only Government Can Bring You a Holocoust
Reply #12 - Feb 11th, 2018 at 7:17pm
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 11th, 2018 at 7:01pm:
First of all, you're nudging the bar a bit from the original post. You implied that only government could commit such an atrocity, not that only government could allow such an atrocity.


Referring specifically to a holocaust or other mass murder of millions, not just any atrocity.
Quote:
At first glance, the message seems very true. Murder on that scale is hugely expensive and a good Ferengi would never do it, because there's no profit in it.

I once read something about how much it actually cost to kill all those Jews, and I remember the inflation-adjusted amount turning my stomach. It was a lot. The thing is, even if you dispose of human remains in the most efficient and least respectful way possible, that shit has to be burned. If you don't do this bare minimum, everyone will get sick and die. The danger human remains present is actually pretty frightening, as is the cost of dealing with it.

Only government could afford to be this wasteful and kill people on this kind of scale.


Interesting.  I wonder how much of that cost was offset by the sale of slave labor.


Quote:
That is logically untrue since slavery is possible without government.

https://www.globalslaveryindex.org/country/somalia/

Emphasis added.


Sure, it is possible, but it is far more widespread in places where the government actively supports it or passively allows it. 

  

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Don_G
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Re: Only Government Can Bring You a Holocoust
Reply #13 - Feb 11th, 2018 at 10:17pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Feb 11th, 2018 at 7:17pm:
Referring specifically to a holocaust or other mass murder of millions, not just any atrocity.

Interesting.  I wonder how much of that cost was offset by the sale of slave labor.



Sure, it is possible, but it is far more widespread in places where the government actively supports it or passively allows it. 



Don't try to revise the holocaust. Those Jews weren't burnt because Germany didn't have the coal to do it. There was a coal shortage. They buried the dead Jews because it was much more cost effective, as well as being necessary.

Anyway, nobody claimed they used coal to burn people. Have you never heard of the gas ovens? Aren't they obviously ovens run by lethal gas?

This is a topic you should stay away from. You've already been demolished with your death camps in Germany.

Stop making up stories to deny the real holocaust. It smells like your denial of real libertarianism.
  
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kaz
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Re: Only Government Can Bring You a Holocoust
Reply #14 - Feb 12th, 2018 at 12:09pm
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I'm just using the opportunity while the regular spammers are away to get some rational ideas into your head. I know it won't last long.

And that kind of answer from you shows you fear it.


LOL.  You know what you've never tried with me, Don the Troll?  Posting serious posts without your troll crap
  

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kaz
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Re: Only Government Can Bring You a Holocoust
Reply #15 - Feb 12th, 2018 at 12:11pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Feb 10th, 2018 at 11:02pm:
Individual mass murderers pale in comparison to government's ability to bring about human suffering.

Jack the Ripper killed perhaps a dozen.  The Manson Family killed less than ten.  Son of Sam killed six.

Government has killed millions.  There needs to be a stronger term than "mass murderer" for government mass killers.



True dat.  Leftists in particular have a long history of murdering civilians.  Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, the list is endless
  

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Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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kaz
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Re: Only Government Can Bring You a Holocoust
Reply #16 - Feb 12th, 2018 at 12:13pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Feb 11th, 2018 at 1:17pm:
I'm not anti-war, I'm anti-aggression.  I make no exception for your country's aggression toward Syria.


Great point on Don's country.  Syria was a cluster.  Obama and Trump both promised to change their predecessors Middle East policy, and both lied
  

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Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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SnarkySack
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Re: Only Government Can Bring You a Holocoust
Reply #17 - Feb 12th, 2018 at 12:35pm
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kaz wrote on Feb 12th, 2018 at 12:09pm:
LOL.  You know what you've never tried with me, Don the Troll?  Posting serious posts without your troll crap


I've learned that when Don posts, "ok, I'm ready for a serious discussion, now" he is actually about to be at his silliest.

  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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kaz
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Re: Only Government Can Bring You a Holocoust
Reply #18 - Feb 12th, 2018 at 12:49pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Feb 12th, 2018 at 12:35pm:
I've learned that when Don posts, "ok, I'm ready for a serious discussion, now" he is actually about to be at his silliest.



Leftists are always like that.  I just laugh now whenever I hear a Democrat talking head on TV now say something like, "what's interesting to me is ..."  You know some seriously funky shit is about to come.

It should be a drinking game for CNN or MSNBC.  One drink for them saying it and another if they follow it with funky shit ...
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Don_G
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Re: Only Government Can Bring You a Holocoust
Reply #19 - Feb 12th, 2018 at 12:58pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Feb 12th, 2018 at 12:35pm:
I've learned that when Don posts, "ok, I'm ready for a serious discussion, now" he is actually about to be at his silliest.



My silliness is inversely proportional to how violently it sets the pig off. Serious straight talk has always been good for the most emoticons. Silliness gets only one or none.

Other behaviour to notice is that when he calls you 'guy' he's pleading.

'true dat' is his way of saying he agrees with one of his enemies but doesn't want to let it become a gesture of any larger potential agreement.
  
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