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SnarkySack
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Is the U.S. Too Generous to its Poor?
Feb 11th, 2018 at 8:16pm
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Yes, to their detriment.

When people who are not required to do a lick of work check their food stamp balance on eight hundred dollar smart phones and complain that "it ain't enough," we have allowed out government to not only rob us for such excesses, but to set them up for failure.  More to the point, we all but guarantee that their children will be welfare dolees. 

Unless they have some initiative and want to get ahead in life.  In that case, our government schools will ensure that they are not prepared for any kind of honest work so they will turn to crime as a means to get rich.

Meanwhile, the politicians who feed off that system carefully place their own children in private schools where they will be taught the bizarre American version of noblese oblige.
  

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The Opposition
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Re: Is the U.S. Too Generous to its Poor?
Reply #1 - Feb 11th, 2018 at 10:58pm
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The thing is, when you give people free money, prices rise.

If there are four oranges, and five people, there is no shell game you can pull to destroy logic or math. Somebody is not getting an orange.

Molly has $1000. Rebecka has $100. Sally has $10. Mary has $5. Bolosha has nothing.

At this point, oranges cost $5. Everyone but Bolosha can buy one.

If you take money from the richest person to buy an orange for the poorest person, the next-poorest person just won't get one. Forget about Molly; it's just a drop in the bucket as far as shes concerned. Mary's the one who's at risk here.

Because everyone is now paying twice as much for the oranges. The orange merchant is free to raise his prices to $10. He only has four oranges to sell, and the government has established that Molly has no say in how much she is forced to give to support Bolosha. They'll just take $10 if they need $10.

So now oranges cost $10, and while things haven't changed much for Molly, Mary now can't afford an orange and starves. Sally, who could previously buy an orange and something else, now only gets to barely stay alive.

If you give the poor more buying power, merchants just raise their prices. If you're anti-capitalist, you know this. There would be no reason to be anti-capitalist if the people with the control over the means of production couldn't just milk people for all they were worth.

All you have to do to see this is true with your own eyeballs is go to the grocery store. Do they lower their prices in a recession?! No! They raise them! (And if you actually check, the price of food was outpacing inflation during that whole recession.)

You're not solving poverty by redistributing anything; you're just redistributing poverty.
  

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Re: Is the U.S. Too Generous to its Poor?
Reply #2 - Feb 12th, 2018 at 12:06pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Feb 11th, 2018 at 8:16pm:
Yes, to their detriment.

When people who are not required to do a lick of work check their food stamp balance on eight hundred dollar smart phones and complain that "it ain't enough," we have allowed out government to not only rob us for such excesses, but to set them up for failure.  More to the point, we all but guarantee that their children will be welfare dolees. 

Unless they have some initiative and want to get ahead in life.  In that case, our government schools will ensure that they are not prepared for any kind of honest work so they will turn to crime as a means to get rich.

Meanwhile, the politicians who feed off that system carefully place their own children in private schools where they will be taught the bizarre American version of noblese oblige.


Democrats aren't being "generous."  They are enslaving the poor to cement their own power
  

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Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Don_G
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Re: Is the U.S. Too Generous to its Poor?
Reply #3 - Feb 12th, 2018 at 12:41pm
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 11th, 2018 at 10:58pm:
You're not solving poverty by redistributing anything; you're just redistributing poverty.


You can speak for your own country but you can't speak for other countries. Some countries keep poverty at lower levels by demonstrating social responsibility. To them it's much more than redistributing money. It's not that at all if you understand that what a company or a corporation earns is done at the pleasure of the country's government.

Government can change that mutually beneficial system of cooperation. It can allow a corporation to operate tax free or it can charge a fee for that corporation's use of the land and the infrastructure.

It's called taxation and it benefits everyone. Some way or other a government has to keep poverty at a low enough standard that is befitting the country's wealth. That's not being done in the US and Trump promises to make it even worse.

So what to do burnsred? Nothing perhaps because the people will demand it be done eventually. The result was seen in your last electin with both Bernie and Trump. The 1% had a close shave and were only rescued because Trump lied.
  
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Re: Is the U.S. Too Generous to its Poor?
Reply #4 - Feb 12th, 2018 at 12:48pm
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Don_G wrote on Feb 12th, 2018 at 12:41pm:
It's called taxation and it benefits everyone. Some way or other a government has to keep poverty at a low enough standard that is befitting the country's wealth. That's not being done in the US and Trump promises to make it even worse


Taking my money and giving it to people who didn't earn it benefits me!  Why didn't you say so before?  OK, I'll be a socialist then.  Finally, I get this socially responsible government now
  

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Re: Is the U.S. Too Generous to its Poor?
Reply #5 - Feb 12th, 2018 at 12:49pm
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Don_G wrote on Feb 12th, 2018 at 12:41pm:
You can speak for your own country but you can't speak for other countries. Some countries keep poverty at lower levels by demonstrating social responsibility. To them it's much more than redistributing money. It's not that at all if you understand that what a company or a corporation earns is done at the pleasure of the country's government.

Government can change that mutually beneficial system of cooperation. It can allow a corporation to operate tax free or it can charge a fee for that corporation's use of the land and the infrastructure.

It's called taxation and it benefits everyone. Some way or other a government has to keep poverty at a low enough standard that is befitting the country's wealth. That's not being done in the US and Trump promises to make it even worse.

So what to do burnsred? Nothing perhaps because the people will demand it be done eventually. The result was seen in your last electin with both Bernie and Trump. The 1% had a close shave and were only rescued because Trump lied.


What your country is doing now is to give the non-working poor enough free money and other benefits that they can live as if the were working class or in come areas as if they were middle class.  This is a good way to keep people from starving or having to live on the streets, but it has two main problems:

1)  It robs people of their motivation to work to improve themselves.  This has created a permanent multi-generational dependency class whose children are now not only not motivated to work but also not motivated to learn in government schools.

2)  Paying them such generous benefits conditioned specifically on their not working means there is a shortage of low-skilled laborers.  The GOP and the Dems address this problem by encouraging illegal immigrants to move here and be working class for at least one generation.

The poor have all of their needs and more met by the current welfare system.  The question is how to rescue them from dependency without their starving since we have robbed them of the will and skill to feed themselves.

  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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Re: Is the U.S. Too Generous to its Poor?
Reply #6 - Feb 12th, 2018 at 1:01pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Feb 12th, 2018 at 12:49pm:
What your country is doing now is to give the non-working poor enough free money and other benefits that they can live as if the were working class or in come areas as if they were middle class.  This is a good way to keep people from starving or having to live on the streets, but it has two main problems:

1)  It robs people of their motivation to work to improve themselves.  This has created a permanent multi-generational dependency class whose children are now not only not motivated to work but also not motivated to learn in government schools.

2)  Paying them such generous benefits conditioned specifically on their not working means there is a shortage of low-skilled laborers.  The GOP and the Dems address this problem by encouraging illegal immigrants to move here and be working class for at least one generation.

The poor have all of their needs and more met by the current welfare system.  The question is how to rescue them from dependency without their starving since we have robbed them of the will and skill to feed themselves.



Oh, Don was wrong about my paying other people's bills for them benefiting me?  Never mind then ...
  

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Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Don_G
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Re: Is the U.S. Too Generous to its Poor?
Reply #7 - Feb 12th, 2018 at 1:25pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Feb 12th, 2018 at 12:49pm:
What your country is doing now is to give the non-working poor enough free money and other benefits that they can live as if the were working class or in come areas as if they were middle class.  This is a good way to keep people from starving or having to live on the streets, but it has two main problems:


You're not defining the poor. By definition the poor aren't living as middle class Americans.

Quote:
1)  It robs people of their motivation to work to improve themselves.  This has created a permanent multi-generational dependency class whose children are now not only not motivated to work but also not motivated to learn in government schools.


Talking about it is progress. What you describe is essentially correct in the US. And it's also accepting the rationale I've tried to explain to you. If that angers you or frightens you to find we're in agreement, then just wait for the explanation!

Quote:
2)  Paying them such generous benefits conditioned specifically on their not working means there is a shortage of low-skilled laborers.  The GOP and the Dems address this problem by encouraging illegal immigrants to move here and be working class for at least one generation.


I can't address all the social ills of the US in one discussion. But I can tell you that your approach to the problem has been the wrong approach. Your grievances express this failure loud and clear every day. And I will say, again actually, that illegal aliens are encouraged to come to the US for the cheap labour they provide. So we're finding agreement there too.

Quote:
The poor have all of their needs and more met by the current welfare system.  The question is how to rescue them from dependency without their starving since we have robbed them of the will and skill to feed themselves.



Yes! And that's where we will begin, as I promised above.

The US takes the wrong approach to it's problems because of a rabid right attitude that is proving just doesn't work. That's why you in your wisdom have chosen to leave the two major parties. (your choice of the LP is a whole different issue that needs addressing sometime later)

I'll dredge up the US prison system because that's a failure we have addressed together and one where we found agreement. It's an indication of the attitudes that are lacking in social responsibility that is exactly parallel to your complaints on the behaviour of the poor.

What to do? Build more prisons and lock up more people? Obviously the wrong approach and that's because it lacks social responsibility.

What to do? Cut off their dole out of your money? No, because that doesn't address the problem and teach them social responsibility. If the buy their $800 phone or their top of the line big screen t.v. then they are bereft of social reponsibility.

[b] Do you want to discuss ways of instilling social responsibility into the poor? If so then I think we can reach agreement in the same way that we reached agreement on Norway's prison system.


Not that we can change it because Norway's prison system isn't acceptable to Americans in the way it's acceptable to you. (just ask the pig) But we can find the right way and suggest it to the forum's participants.
  
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Re: Is the U.S. Too Generous to its Poor?
Reply #8 - Feb 12th, 2018 at 2:33pm
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Don_G wrote on Feb 12th, 2018 at 1:25pm:
You're not defining the poor. By definition the poor aren't living as middle class Americans.


Talking about it is progress. What you describe is essentially correct in the US. And it's also accepting the rationale I've tried to explain to you. If that angers you or frightens you to find we're in agreement, then just wait for the explanation!


I can't address all the social ills of the US in one discussion. But I can tell you that your approach to the problem has been the wrong approach. Your grievances express this failure loud and clear every day. And I will say, again actually, that illegal aliens are encouraged to come to the US for the cheap labour they provide. So we're finding agreement there too.


Yes! And that's where we will begin, as I promised above.

The US takes the wrong approach to it's problems because of a rabid right attitude that is proving just doesn't work. That's why you in your wisdom have chosen to leave the two major parties. (your choice of the LP is a whole different issue that needs addressing sometime later)

I'll dredge up the US prison system because that's a failure we have addressed together and one where we found agreement. It's an indication of the attitudes that are lacking in social responsibility that is exactly parallel to your complaints on the behaviour of the poor.

What to do? Build more prisons and lock up more people? Obviously the wrong approach and that's because it lacks social responsibility.

What to do? Cut off their dole out of your money? No, because that doesn't address the problem and teach them social responsibility. If the buy their $800 phone or their top of the line big screen t.v. then they are bereft of social reponsibility.

[b] Do you want to discuss ways of instilling social responsibility into the poor? If so then I think we can reach agreement in the same way that we reached agreement on Norway's prison system.


Not that we can change it because Norway's prison system isn't acceptable to Americans in the way it's acceptable to you. (just ask the pig) But we can find the right way and suggest it to the forum's participants.


I would love to hear your ideas.  I believe that individual responsibility is the key to keeping people from becoming what the Soviet Union used to call "social parasites."  Any ideas on how to instill that would be welcome.

  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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Re: Is the U.S. Too Generous to its Poor?
Reply #9 - Feb 12th, 2018 at 5:06pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Feb 12th, 2018 at 2:33pm:
I would love to hear your ideas.  I believe that individual responsibility is the key to keeping people from becoming what the Soviet Union used to call "social parasites."  Any ideas on how to instill that would be welcome.



It requires an attiude change. You showed you were ready with the prison system discussion but it didn't come easy for you. Now this is a whole new challenge and you are going to have to show you're interested in finding a way to stop the poor from taking all your money.

To test your sincerity I'll start with one suggestion to see if you want to expand on it.

Like the prison system, you have to be willing to give before you get back. You promote social programs for the children. You have to elect government that has an inteerest in doing that. It's a write off at the federal level with Trump but maybe at lower levels of government it can start working.

What did you think of Michelle Obama's program of providing good healthy meals for school children? Are you a socially minded person as you showed with the prison system ideas or were you dragged kicking and screaming into a trap laid for you.

There's no use in trying to talk to you if you're not ready yet. I consider one success in  a year good progress. Your change of heart on Norway's prison system was more than I expected of you for the short time it took. That speaks well for you as potentially useful on this forum.

But you were alone among pseudo-libertarians because not a word of encourgement from Jeff, the pig, the Chief, ahhell, or the other pondscum.

Are you ready to reach out to the poor?
  
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