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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Is the U.S. Too Generous to its Poor? (Read 355 times)
SnarkySack
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Re: Is the U.S. Too Generous to its Poor?
Reply #10 - Feb 12th, 2018 at 6:24pm
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Don_G wrote on Feb 12th, 2018 at 5:06pm:
It requires an attiude change. You showed you were ready with the prison system discussion but it didn't come easy for you. Now this is a whole new challenge and you are going to have to show you're interested in finding a way to stop the poor from taking all your money.

To test your sincerity I'll start with one suggestion to see if you want to expand on it.

Like the prison system, you have to be willing to give before you get back. You promote social programs for the children. You have to elect government that has an inteerest in doing that. It's a write off at the federal level with Trump but maybe at lower levels of government it can start working.

What did you think of Michelle Obama's program of providing good healthy meals for school children? Are you a socially minded person as you showed with the prison system ideas or were you dragged kicking and screaming into a trap laid for you.


Actually, you just walked into a trap of your own making.   I work at least one day per week in different public schools and I see the results of Michelle Obama's healthy food initiative.  it wasn't about giving children free lunch, they were already getting that.  It was about making lunches "healthy" by reducing fat, sugar and spices and giving them whole grains.  It has also made them far less tasty and children are simply throwing most of them away. They are forced to take "one vegetable and one fruit" by the cafeteria ladies, which they often discard before even sitting down.  No sausage, bacon or eggs for breakfast.  It is often leftover pizza from lunch and/or whole grain donuts, french toast (no syrup or butter) or corn dogs.  The donuts aren't very good, but they are relatively popular.  The children often take them and eat three or four of the package.  When the donuts run out, they take the french toast and pick at it.

Now, I would absolutely support a program in which poor children are fed free meals three times a day, with public schools being a ready made point of delivery.  I think that is what you had in mind, not Michelle's plan of starving them to combat the obesity problem.  The meals should be well-balanced and should condiments to make them taste good.  There should be real deserts, not donuts with so little sugar that they are just tasteless bread shaped like donuts.  Ice cream is a great source of calories and calcium.  Fortify it with vitamins and the poor will be well-fed. 

Focusing in on the children of the layabouts is the ONLY way we are ever going to end the multi-generational dependency.  In that I fully agree.  In coming to agreement about the benefits of Norway's system, you seemed unaware of the fact that judges hold violent criminals indefinitely unless they are truly rehabbed, even if they've served their original sentences.  You even denied it and called me a liar, though I believe you apologized for that when you realized your mistake.  Still you never seemed fully on board with that part of it.  I wonder if there will be something like that on this issue.  Hopefully not . . .
 

Combine that with offering dormitory style shelters to poor families instead of housing subsidies and the program costs pennies on the dollar compared to our current wasteful system.  Clearly, feeding children directly is a much better way to ensure that they are fed than giving their dolee parents cash or food stamps they can and do trade for drugs.  It can even be paid for voluntarily since people will have confidence that their generosity isn't being abused.


« Last Edit: Feb 12th, 2018 at 8:01pm by SnarkySack »  

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Don_G
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Re: Is the U.S. Too Generous to its Poor?
Reply #11 - Feb 12th, 2018 at 7:56pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Feb 12th, 2018 at 6:24pm:
Actually, you just walked into a trap of your own making.   I work at least one day per week in different public schools and I see the results of Michelle Obama's healthy food initiative.


And if you had read what I said you would have seen that I said good healthy meals. Michelle Obama took the right first steps but the children couldn't be immediately changed. And then the problems were capitalized on by people like you to kill the obvious smart first steps. Congratulations! As a parent you would already know that she was right but politics are more important to you.

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  it wasn't about giving children free lunch, they were already getting that.  It was about making lunches "healthy" by reducing fat and giving them whole grains.


This isn't about trapping each other burnsred, that's just your attitude that I've dragged out of you again.

And because of your attitude of hating toward the poor and always accusing them of being lazy, there's really no reason to try to talk to you on the issue. No matter what you go on to say, you've betrayed the fact that you're not interested in helping people, you're interested in condemning them.

When the US starts acting socially responsible, it won't be because of anything you do or say. It will be in spite of everything you do and say.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Is the U.S. Too Generous to its Poor?
Reply #12 - Feb 12th, 2018 at 10:05pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Feb 12th, 2018 at 6:24pm:
Actually, you just walked into a trap of your own making.   I work at least one day per week in different public schools and I see the results of Michelle Obama's healthy food initiative.  it wasn't about giving children free lunch, they were already getting that.  It was about making lunches "healthy" by reducing fat, sugar and spices and giving them whole grains.  It has also made them far less tasty and children are simply throwing most of them away. They are forced to take "one vegetable and one fruit" by the cafeteria ladies, which they often discard before even sitting down.  No sausage, bacon or eggs for breakfast.  It is often leftover pizza from lunch and/or whole grain donuts, french toast (no syrup or butter) or corn dogs.  The donuts aren't very good, but they are relatively popular.  The children often take them and eat three or four of the package.  When the donuts run out, they take the french toast and pick at it.


I've also seen this firsthand. It's always been a thing but it's worse now.

When I was a kid, I wasn't rich enough to throw food away. Only the poor kids are rich enough to do that.
  

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SnarkySack
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Re: Is the U.S. Too Generous to its Poor?
Reply #13 - Feb 13th, 2018 at 8:52am
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Don_G wrote on Feb 12th, 2018 at 7:56pm:
And if you had read what I said you would have seen that I said good healthy meals. Michelle Obama took the right first steps but the children couldn't be immediately changed. And then the problems were capitalized on by people like you to kill the obvious smart first steps. Congratulations! As a parent you would already know that she was right but politics are more important to you.


This isn't about trapping each other burnsred, that's just your attitude that I've dragged out of you again.

And because of your attitude of hating toward the poor and always accusing them of being lazy, there's really no reason to try to talk to you on the issue. No matter what you go on to say, you've betrayed the fact that you're not interested in helping people, you're interested in condemning them.

When the US starts acting socially responsible, it won't be because of anything you do or say. It will be in spite of everything you do and say.


You brought up the idea that we would "trap" each other.

Your premise that we can't have a rational debate unless I first stop believing my own eyes and listen to your idealized version of Michelle's health initiative.  Like so many government ideas, it was well meaning but its failure was predictable by anyone looking at it objectively.  Giving kids food they won't eat isn't healthy.
  

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Re: Is the U.S. Too Generous to its Poor?
Reply #14 - Feb 13th, 2018 at 9:36am
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 12th, 2018 at 10:05pm:
I've also seen this firsthand. It's always been a thing but it's worse now.

When I was a kid, I wasn't rich enough to throw food away. Only the poor kids are rich enough to do that.


Yep.  There is an obesity epidemic among the "poor" in this country.  Thinking they're going to eat food they don't want is ridiculous.

Idiot leftists like Don are that they believe their own propaganda.  They don't have enough to eat!  That rarely happens in the US and when it does it's because of mental health issues, not unavailability of food.

It's also why government solutions to problems are so bad.  Government allocates the money and it's spent.  They don't care about results.  Private charities care about results
  

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Re: Is the U.S. Too Generous to its Poor?
Reply #15 - Feb 13th, 2018 at 9:45am
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 11th, 2018 at 10:58pm:
The thing is, when you give people free money, prices rise.

If there are four oranges, and five people, there is no shell game you can pull to destroy logic or math. Somebody is not getting an orange.

Molly has $1000. Rebecka has $100. Sally has $10. Mary has $5. Bolosha has nothing.

At this point, oranges cost $5. Everyone but Bolosha can buy one.

If you take money from the richest person to buy an orange for the poorest person, the next-poorest person just won't get one. Forget about Molly; it's just a drop in the bucket as far as shes concerned. Mary's the one who's at risk here.

Because everyone is now paying twice as much for the oranges. The orange merchant is free to raise his prices to $10. He only has four oranges to sell, and the government has established that Molly has no say in how much she is forced to give to support Bolosha. They'll just take $10 if they need $10.

So now oranges cost $10, and while things haven't changed much for Molly, Mary now can't afford an orange and starves. Sally, who could previously buy an orange and something else, now only gets to barely stay alive.

If you give the poor more buying power, merchants just raise their prices. If you're anti-capitalist, you know this. There would be no reason to be anti-capitalist if the people with the control over the means of production couldn't just milk people for all they were worth.

All you have to do to see this is true with your own eyeballs is go to the grocery store. Do they lower their prices in a recession?! No! They raise them! (And if you actually check, the price of food was outpacing inflation during that whole recession.)

You're not solving poverty by redistributing anything; you're just redistributing poverty.


The government would take one of the oranges for helping redistribute the oranges fairly.  So two people wouldn't get an orange
  

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Don_G
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Re: Is the U.S. Too Generous to its Poor?
Reply #16 - Feb 13th, 2018 at 12:34pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Feb 13th, 2018 at 8:52am:
You brought up the idea that we would "trap" each other.


No, it was phrased as a question.

Quote:
Your premise that we can't have a rational debate unless I first stop believing my own eyes and listen to your idealized version of Michelle's health initiative.  Like so many government ideas, it was well meaning but its failure was predictable by anyone looking at it objectively.  Giving kids food they won't eat isn't healthy.


It was turned into politics and it's failure was promoted. And in fact it was mocked for other reasons before it was used by people like you to promote failure.

After your history on this forum has amply demonstrated your demeanour, you can't pull of a scam of pretending you have some feelings of social responsibility.

You've done nothing but mock my words, 'socially responsible government' for months. You read hate into those words and never once admitted to understanding their simple meaning.

Your political bent has made it clear that you hate the poor because you think they're lazy and only want to take your money.

You can change but you can't claim change overnight. You'll need to demonstrate it over a few weeks.

You see burnsred, I know that even Norway's prison system was never accepted as logical to you. It continued to stick in your craw as evidenced by your remarks.
  
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Re: Is the U.S. Too Generous to its Poor?
Reply #17 - Feb 13th, 2018 at 10:52pm
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kaz wrote on Feb 13th, 2018 at 9:45am:
The government would take one of the oranges for helping redistribute the oranges fairly.  So two people wouldn't get an orange


I'm saying even theoretically, if we could just say it and make it so with no resources invested, and have $10 of Molly's money appear in Bolosha's wallet, it still doesn't work.

Sellers just raise their prices and Mary starves instead.

And in the process, Sally is now being made to struggle and suffer where she wasn't before.

You can't have socially responsible capitalism, because it's still capitalism. Declare something a necessity and give it out for free to the poor, and the extra demand for it you create will price it out of reach of the next person. You're just changing who doesn't get it.

I guess that's kinda the point. Mary probably votes for Trump.

Don_G wrote on Feb 13th, 2018 at 11:56am:
All you're really doing is trying to promote more hate toward the poor people in your country.


Okay, I'll bite.

Why shouldn't the working class hate the poor? The poor have more than they do. Even my eyes pop out at the food budget a welfare family gets per person. I don't spend nearly that much on myself.

Should I not feel a little resentment when the cart in front of me, full of things like $10 Pom Wonderful pomegranate juice, ends up belonging to someone who whips out an EBT card? I can't afford that crap. I can't just go to the grocery store and buy whatever I want. If I want pomegranate juice, I wait until the cheap kind is on sale for $2.

Your whole argument is that that resentment is okay. Redistribution making things fair is permissible. Okay, fine. Let's go with that. I want half that Pom Wonderful. Let's dump out her cart, dump out mine, and redistribute that.

But I know you won't go for this.

Maybe it's about who they vote for and not any sort of principles. If the working class hates the poor because the poor have more than they do, it's wrong because they vote for Trump. But if the poor hate the rich because the rich have more than they do, that's okay because they'll back your horse.
  

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Don_G
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Re: Is the U.S. Too Generous to its Poor?
Reply #18 - Feb 14th, 2018 at 12:05am
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 13th, 2018 at 10:52pm:
I'm saying even theoretically, if we could just say it and make it so with no resources invested, and have $10 of Molly's money appear in Bolosha's wallet, it still doesn't work.

Sellers just raise their prices and Mary starves instead.

And in the process, Sally is now being made to struggle and suffer where she wasn't before.

You can't have socially responsible capitalism, because it's still capitalism. Declare something a necessity and give it out for free to the poor, and the extra demand for it you create will price it out of reach of the next person. You're just changing who doesn't get it.

I guess that's kinda the point. Mary probably votes for Trump.


Okay, I'll bite.

Why shouldn't the working class hate the poor? The poor have more than they do. Even my eyes pop out at the food budget a welfare family gets per person. I don't spend nearly that much on myself.

Should I not feel a little resentment when the cart in front of me, full of things like $10 Pom Wonderful pomegranate juice, ends up belonging to someone who whips out an EBT card? I can't afford that crap. I can't just go to the grocery store and buy whatever I want. If I want pomegranate juice, I wait until the cheap kind is on sale for $2.

Your whole argument is that that resentment is okay. Redistribution making things fair is permissible. Okay, fine. Let's go with that. I want half that Pom Wonderful. Let's dump out her cart, dump out mine, and redistribute that.

But I know you won't go for this.

Maybe it's about who they vote for and not any sort of principles. If the working class hates the poor because the poor have more than they do, it's wrong because they vote for Trump. But if the poor hate the rich because the rich have more than they do, that's okay because they'll back your horse.


You're not ready to learn yet. Check out burnsred's effort to pretend he's socially responsible and copy it. Burnsred will give it up in a few days and return to his hateful self but you could put more effort in it to fool some people.

You're not getting it Oppo and it's so simple. That's because you begrudge poor people anything they can have that you can't have. Your shortcomings are your own and the reason why you can't buy Pom wonderful. That has nothing to do with poor people buying it.

I don't think anyone who portends to be a libertarian can ever understand social responsibility. It's a contradiction of terms.

In any case, poverty isn't being dealt with in the US and that's what's important. That's got nothing to do with you begrudging poor people small pleasures.

Or more likely, just making up a story about what was in somebody's shopping cart.
  
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Re: Is the U.S. Too Generous to its Poor?
Reply #19 - Feb 14th, 2018 at 5:40am
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Don_G wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 12:05am:
You're not getting it Oppo and it's so simple. That's because you begrudge poor people anything they can have that you can't have. Your shortcomings are your own and the reason why you can't buy Pom wonderful. That has nothing to do with poor people buying it.


You're not getting it Don, and it's so simple. That's because you begrudge the rich anything they can have that you can't have. Your shortcomings are your own and the reason you're not rich. That has nothing to do with other people being rich.
  

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