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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Death penalty (Read 571 times)
kaz
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Death penalty
Feb 23rd, 2018 at 12:21pm
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This is inspired by SkyChief's post:

SkyChief wrote on Feb 23rd, 2018 at 11:55am:
I thought of a third.  Capital Punishment.   I'm for it in some very special cases, and I suspect that's not a very libertarian position.

That piece-of-shit who killed all those people at the school in Parkland, Florida should be put to death, imho.


I personally oppose the death penalty.  I do not believe it's an effective deterrent and never will be because so much of the country is against it and will always fight every implementation tooth and nail to stop it.  That means it's way, way more costly than lie in prison and always will be.

Second, which is related, I think killing people as punishment is something we need to move past as a society.  Really this is the first point restated.

However, you won't catch me at a protest over capital punishment.

That said, if we have capital punishment, there is one thing we should change.  Death penalty decisions should be made by whoever is closest to the victim.  Juries deciding death are just coin flips.  The punishment for the loss should be made by the people who suffered the loss.

That BTW is the view of the majority of libertarians I know
  

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Sicklers Dink
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Re: Death penalty
Reply #1 - Feb 23rd, 2018 at 12:40pm
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kaz wrote on Feb 23rd, 2018 at 12:21pm:
This is inspired by SkyChief's post:


I personally oppose the death penalty.  I do not believe it's an effective deterrent and never will be because so much of the country is against it and will always fight every implementation tooth and nail to stop it.  That means it's way, way more costly than lie in prison and always will be.

Second, which is related, I think killing people as punishment is something we need to move past as a society.  Really this is the first point restated.

However, you won't catch me at a protest over capital punishment.

That said, if we have capital punishment, there is one thing we should change.  Death penalty decisions should be made by whoever is closest to the victim.  Juries deciding death are just coin flips.  The punishment for the loss should be made by the people who suffered the loss.

That BTW is the view of the majority of libertarians I know


So you take the right position on capital punishment and then go and turn it into 'stupid' by saying the victim's relatives or friends should make the decision on the death penalty.

Pseudo-libertarians aren't too smart Pig.
  
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AlayneLeung
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Re: Death penalty
Reply #2 - Feb 23rd, 2018 at 12:44pm
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Given how that capital offense cases usually cost very much, we could spend that money for more personnel trained to prevent crimes including personnel that wisely use extrasensory perception.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Death penalty
Reply #3 - Feb 23rd, 2018 at 12:51pm
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kaz wrote on Feb 23rd, 2018 at 12:21pm:
This is inspired by SkyChief's post:
Death penalty decisions should be made by whoever is closest to the victim... The punishment for the loss should be made by the people who suffered the loss.


I agree 100%  Smiley
  
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Sicklers Dink
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Re: Death penalty
Reply #4 - Feb 23rd, 2018 at 1:00pm
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AlayneLeung wrote on Feb 23rd, 2018 at 12:44pm:
Given how that capital offense cases usually cost very much, we could spend that money for more personnel trained to prevent crimes including personnel that wisely use extrasensory perception.


You're supposed to try to hide your motivation for being for or against the death penalty. Yours is purely related to the price tag. You got caught.
  
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Sicklers Dink
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Re: Death penalty
Reply #5 - Feb 23rd, 2018 at 1:06pm
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SkyChief wrote on Feb 23rd, 2018 at 12:51pm:
I agree 100%  Smiley


Kneejerk on your part Chief. He's asking that the decision on whether or not to kill a murderer be made on emotions.

Of course emotions should have nothing to do with the decision. If it's an option at all, which it obviously shouldn't be, the decision should be made logically on the basis of several factors. Those factors being roughly those on which the decision is already being made.

I won't say, on the egregiousness of the crime because that's too simple and incomplete. This could become a worthwhile discussion if the basis of that kind of decision could be considered here.

That's just me asking libertarians to look a little more below the kneejerk surface reaction they turn to so often.

Maybe burnsred could get a discussion going?
  
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ahhell
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Re: Death penalty
Reply #6 - Feb 23rd, 2018 at 1:09pm
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In theory, I do not oppose the death penalty, its certainly more humane than life in prison.  I also believe there are some people that are too dangerous to let out in society.  If you've killed or raped someone after you've turned 30, you will not reform.

In practice I oppose it.
A.  There is too much evidence that we get wrong a lot.  Convicting folks of crimes they aren't guilty of.
B.  It is a waste of money and resources that could be spent elsewhere to greater effect.

Leaving the decision to those close to the victim is ridiculous unless you think revenge is an appropriate function of the judicial system, I do not.

There is some poor evidence that the death penalty is a deterrent in certain murders.  Those used to cover up crime.

So, if you want to impose the death penalty for the special circumstance of a guy that kills his victims to prevent them from testifying that might be a good idea.  The evidence is a rise in such murders in some areas following the prohibition of the death penalty in the 60s.  It makes sense, its a situation where a the killer is actually thinking about the pros and cons of murder.  "Am I better off killing this witness?  Well not if it changes the possible sentence from a few years in prison to death."
  
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Sicklers Dink
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Re: Death penalty
Reply #7 - Feb 23rd, 2018 at 1:21pm
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ahhell wrote on Feb 23rd, 2018 at 1:09pm:
In theory, I do not oppose the death penalty, its certainly more humane than life in prison.  I also believe there are some people that are too dangerous to let out in society.  If you've killed or raped someone after you've turned 30, you will not reform.

In practice I oppose it.
A.  There is too much evidence that we get wrong a lot.  Convicting folks of crimes they aren't guilty of.
B.  It is a waste of money and resources that could be spent elsewhere to greater effect.

Leaving the decision to those close to the victim is ridiculous unless you think revenge is an appropriate function of the judicial system, I do not.

There is some poor evidence that the death penalty is a deterrent in certain murders.  Those used to cover up crime.

So, if you want to impose the death penalty for the special circumstance of a guy that kills his victims to prevent them from testifying that might be a good idea.  The evidence is a rise in such murders in some areas following the prohibition of the death penalty in the 60s.  It makes sense, its a situation where a the killer is actually thinking about the pros and cons of murder.  "Am I better off killing this witness?  Well not if it changes the possible sentence from a few years in prison to death."


You certainly get it right on keeping the emotional aspect out of the decision, and that's what it would be if it was left to those close to the victim (s). I was thinking of you when I wrote my previous post and thinking that you would be the one most likely to get that right.

But unfortunately you don't appreciate that you can't get into some 'examples' to lay out your position. It's much too complicated for that.

The libertarians will invariably head straight for the kneejerk reaction. I don't accuse you of doing that but I warn against it.

Simply mentioning crimes of passion for example, could be a way of expanding the conversation. Or perhaps dozens of other considerations that would be applicable to murder, homicide, manslaughter, etc., etc.

And after that, we would have to get into the skin colour factor too. Or maybe more important than that, the amount of money the defendant has at his disposal. (OJ)
  
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kaz
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Re: Death penalty
Reply #8 - Feb 23rd, 2018 at 1:57pm
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Sicklers Dink wrote on Feb 23rd, 2018 at 12:40pm:
So you take the right position on capital punishment and then go and turn it into 'stupid' by saying the victim's relatives or friends should make the decision on the death penalty.

Pseudo-libertarians aren't too smart Pig.


Why is random like we have now better than the victim's family who suffered the loss deciding?  What is fair about random?
  

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Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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kaz
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Re: Death penalty
Reply #9 - Feb 23rd, 2018 at 2:01pm
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ahhell wrote on Feb 23rd, 2018 at 1:09pm:
Leaving the decision to those close to the victim is ridiculous unless you think revenge is an appropriate function of the judicial system, I do not


Because why?  Why should the people who suffered the loss not be the ones to make the decision?  At this point, presumably we are simply deciding between life in prison and death.  The family has no say in determination of guilt, only what the punishment for their crime should be.  What is fair about strangers making a random decision?  The killer gave the family no say in the death of the victim, why should they not have a say in the death of the killer?

Also, you and I sound similar in that we oppose the death penalty on practicality.  We get it, but we think overall it's more bad than good.

We also agreed that the primary reason to have it would be deterrent.

So which is the greater deterrent?  If you kill person X, random people will make a random decision whether or not you face the death penalty.  Or, if you kill person X, their family will decide whether or not you face the death penalty.

Which would deter you more from killing person X?
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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