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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Death penalty (Read 664 times)
kaz
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Re: Death penalty
Reply #10 - Feb 23rd, 2018 at 2:05pm
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Simply mentioning crimes of passion for example, could be a way of expanding the conversation


A crime of passion would be second degree murder or manslaughter and therefore would not subject you to the death penalty decision
  

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Snarky Sack
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Re: Death penalty
Reply #11 - Feb 23rd, 2018 at 2:46pm
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I guess once again, I'm taking the opposite approach.  I strongly oppose the death penalty based on libertarian theory, but  I'm fairly indifferent to the way it is carried out in the practical world.

As a libertarian, I don't believe government is to be trusted to decide who lives and who dies.  It's bad enough that we have to trust them to decide who can be incarcerated for up to the rest of their lives.  If the "cruel and unusual" clause of the constitution were to be followed,  the death penalty would have to be stopped based on the infrequency that it is applied which makes it unusual and the fact that it is applied infrequently because a large fraction of the population deems it cruel.


As a practical matter, since the USSC reinstated the death penalty, there are so many safeguards and opportunities for hearings that it is extremely unlikely that an innocent person would be executed.  If there were such cases, we would hear about them constantly since so many people so violently oppose the death penalty.   Supposed cases of innocence are nearly always baseless, with the only evidence being the person's continued denial.

  

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kaz
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Re: Death penalty
Reply #12 - Feb 23rd, 2018 at 2:49pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Feb 23rd, 2018 at 2:46pm:
I guess once again, I'm taking the opposite approach.  I strongly oppose the death penalty based on libertarian theory, but  I'm fairly indifferent to the way it is carried out in the practical world.

As a libertarian, I don't believe government is to be trusted to decide who lives and who dies


Government doesn't decide that.  Post fail.  You don't know how our legal system works?  Seriously?

And anti-death penalty is not the libertarian position.  There is no "libertarian" position.  That's because it isn't really a political position so much as a moral one.
I am anti-death penalty.  I'm not couching my answers in "because I am a libertarian" like you to prop up your answers
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Don_G
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Re: Death penalty
Reply #13 - Feb 23rd, 2018 at 2:57pm
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kaz wrote on Feb 23rd, 2018 at 2:01pm:
Because why?  Why should the people who suffered the loss not be the ones to make the decision?  At this point, presumably we are simply deciding between life in prison and death.  The family has no say in determination of guilt, only what the punishment for their crime should be.  What is fair about strangers making a random decision?  The killer gave the family no say in the death of the victim, why should they not have a say in the death of the killer?

Also, you and I sound similar in that we oppose the death penalty on practicality.  We get it, but we think overall it's more bad than good.

We also agreed that the primary reason to have it would be deterrent.

So which is the greater deterrent?  If you kill person X, random people will make a random decision whether or not you face the death penalty.  Or, if you kill person X, their family will decide whether or not you face the death penalty.

Which would deter you more from killing person X?

That leaves little doubt that the best thing that could happen to this forum is you being run over by a freight train.

No, lets change that to one a mile long.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Death penalty
Reply #14 - Feb 23rd, 2018 at 3:06pm
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kaz wrote on Feb 23rd, 2018 at 2:49pm:
Government doesn't decide that.  Post fail


Saying juries aren't part of the government is like saying soldiers aren't part of the government if they got drafted.  Juries do whatever the judge tells them to do except that they have some choice over the specific verdict.  It's an old teacher trick to ask a kid something like, "do you want to sit at your desk to write this essay or over at the table?"  That limited choice may make the student think he has some control, but the teacher is in charge.
  

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kaz
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Re: Death penalty
Reply #15 - Feb 23rd, 2018 at 3:11pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Feb 23rd, 2018 at 3:06pm:
Saying juries aren't part of the government is like saying soldiers aren't part of the government if they got drafted


Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley

OMG, that's stupid.  Even for you.

That comparison is hyperbole.  And the little analogy that is there works against you.  Drafting people to fight in wars is stupid and that's a big part of why.  They aren't committed to government's cause because they had no choice
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Don_G
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Re: Death penalty
Reply #16 - Feb 23rd, 2018 at 3:13pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Feb 23rd, 2018 at 3:06pm:
Saying juries aren't part of the government is like saying soldiers aren't part of the government if they got drafted.  Juries do whatever the judge tells them to do except that they have some choice over the specific verdict.  It's an old teacher trick to ask a kid something like, "do you want to sit at your desk to write this essay or over at the table?"  That limited choice may make the student think he has some control, but the teacher is in charge.


My answer to the pig was a better answer than yours. He'll understand mine at least.

The pig's a very troubled individual and I'm quite surprised that you don't seem to have recognized that yet, with your 'claimed' expertise. If you had then you would be handling him in a more appropriate way.

The pig goes off even when nobody is trying to set him off.

Jeezuz fking krist, are all libertarians mentally ill in some peculiar way. Is anti-establishment or maybe anti-authority a definable mental illness?

Isn't that the pig's problem he's displaying, mr. socalled professional? Or are you too fked up yourself to answer?
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Death penalty
Reply #17 - Feb 23rd, 2018 at 3:47pm
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Is anti-establishment or maybe anti-authority a definable mental illness?


The authorities in the establishment all agree that it is . . .
  

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The Opposition
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Re: Death penalty
Reply #18 - Feb 23rd, 2018 at 3:49pm
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So you take the right position on capital punishment and then go and turn it into 'stupid' by saying the victim's relatives or friends should make the decision on the death penalty.

Pseudo-libertarians aren't too smart Pig.


I don't think it's stupid at all. The jury didn't suffer the loss, so they don't understand the value.

If I wreck your $25 drinking thermos and you tell the jury it was worth $25, they understand that because they live in this world and use money.

They're not Star Trek people who don't understand what money is. If any of them were from that future, you would rightly ask that they be dismissed from the jury because they're not going to award you anything. They're communists who don't understand property, so they're just going to say, "Stuff gets broken sometimes. Get another one."

Because they don't understand this world, or what $25 is.

It renders them completely unfit to serve on that jury.

If you don't like the fantastical example, you have two options:

1. Don't respond.

2. Pretend there's a well-working communist system today and I used the example of someone from that society.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Don_G
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Re: Death penalty
Reply #19 - Feb 23rd, 2018 at 3:52pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Feb 23rd, 2018 at 3:47pm:
The authorities in the establishment all agree that it is . . .


So your answer is, just the establishment would think so.

Mental illness can't be that which is accepted to be the norm.

If more than say 5% of the people are fixated on their guns and the urge to use it on somebody, then that can't be defined as a mental illness. The 5% is negotiable. It would apply in Canada but it may be as high as 20% in the US.

Anyway, you being a professional, you get it.
  
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