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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Death penalty (Read 661 times)
Don_G
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Re: Death penalty
Reply #40 - Feb 24th, 2018 at 6:58pm
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SkyChief wrote on Feb 24th, 2018 at 5:19pm:
We can't allow mental patients to commit mass murder. That sets a dangerous precedent.  They must be held accountable just as you or I would be had we committed this crime.   


Fine! But that attitude will get the LP taken to the cleaners. It's not sociallly acceptable and can be equated with Nazism.

It's surprising to me how unsophisticated your thinking is, and I'm assuming you're speaking for the declared agenda of the LP.

But you won't allow yourself to be reformed when you're told of how your thinking is flawed.

Or maybe it's not the position of the LP after all. It may be that you're just falling into my trap of promoting contrariness.

edit: The LP opposes the death penalty. This would obvious include the mentally ill.

They state some paranoia about not allowing government to do it but that's just silly window dressinig. Unless they're batshit crazy enough to allow victimes to rub out those they 'think' deserve it.

This is much too nuanced an issue for libertarians no-mind assholes. 
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Death penalty
Reply #41 - Feb 24th, 2018 at 7:26pm
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Fine! But that attitude will get the LP taken to the cleaners. It's not sociallly acceptable and can be equated with Nazism.

I don't speak for the LP, or other libertarians.  A Socially Responsible Justice system treats the accused equally.  So the pushment should be equal as well.  That's all I'm asking for demanding.

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It's surprising to me how unsophisticated your thinking is, and I'm assuming you're speaking for the declared agenda of the LP.

Again, I speak for myself.  My opinions are not always in lockstep with the LP agenda.  I think most libertarians oppose capital punishment.

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edit: The LP opposes the death penalty. This would obvious include the mentally ill.

Very well, I'll accept that as true.  Doesn't sway my conviction about equal justice regardless of race or gender, though.  And as you have stated, the justice system isn't 100% egalitarian.  Far from it.


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This is much too nuanced an issue for libertarians no-mind assholes. 

If the shoe fits:

"The lesson liberals need to learn is that despite their arrogance, they do not have the power to alter reality." - Walter Williams
  
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Don_G
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Re: Death penalty
Reply #42 - Feb 24th, 2018 at 7:31pm
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SkyChief wrote on Feb 24th, 2018 at 7:26pm:
I don't speak for the LP, or other libertarians.  A Socially Responsible Justice system treats the accused equally.  So the pushment should be equal as well.  That's all I'm asking for demanding.

Again, I speak for myself.  My opinions are not always in lockstep with the LP agenda.  I think most libertarians oppose capital punishment.

Very well, I'll accept that as true.  Doesn't sway my conviction about equal justice regardless of race or gender, though.  And as you have stated, the justice system isn't 100% egalitarian.  Far from it.


If the shoe fits:

"The lesson liberals need to learn is that despite their arrogance, they do not have the power to alter reality." - Walter Williams



I have to commend and thank you for engaging in conversation, instead of running away pouting like most of the others. You at least have opinions that you're not ashamed of.

You're the kind of people the libertarian party needs Chief. Never mind why.
  
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ahhell
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Re: Death penalty
Reply #43 - Feb 28th, 2018 at 2:00pm
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Jeff wrote on Feb 23rd, 2018 at 5:22pm:
You said you do not and will not believe the death penalty is a deterrent.

I asked you to present your argument in support of your assertion.

Your question in response indicates that you lose, you refuse to support your assertion.

If I ever said that I will not believe the death penalty is a deterrent, I misswrote.  I don't believe it is in most cases and doubt evidence be forthcoming to shot that it is a deterrent.  There are specific circumstances which I have described in which there is evidence that it acts as a deterrent.  That evidence is weak and I can see why someone wouldn't be convinced by it. 

Outside of those circumstances, I am unaware of any evidence that the death penalty deters crime.  Even when applied frequently, as it was for most of history.   

I'll give Skychief credit, punishment doesn't need evidence, its not a testable claim.  I don't particularly care about punishment, I'd prefer we had a justice systems whose goal was to reduce crime and used evidence to figure out how to accomplish that goal.

kaz wrote on Feb 24th, 2018 at 2:35pm:
There's no doubt that you're right that the death penalty is not a deterrent.  It's just far to infrequently and randomly applied.

To be a deterrent, it would have to be widely and consistently applied.  That's not going to happen.  The country would have to be united behind the death penalty for that to work, and it's not
There is in fact doubt. All societies that have the death penalty still had the crimes they impossed to the death penalty for.  Again, I'm not aware of any evidence that indicates they even had less crime where as there is evidence that in the US, states with the death penalty don't have fewer murders.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Death penalty
Reply #44 - Feb 28th, 2018 at 2:13pm
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ahhell wrote on Feb 28th, 2018 at 2:00pm:
If I ever said that I will not believe the death penalty is a deterrent, I misswrote.  I don't believe it is in most cases and doubt evidence be forthcoming to shot that it is a deterrent.  There are specific circumstances which I have described in which there is evidence that it acts as a deterrent.  That evidence is weak and I can see why someone wouldn't be convinced by it. 

Outside of those circumstances, I am unaware of any evidence that the death penalty deters crime.  Even when applied frequently, as it was for most of history.   

I'll give Skychief credit, punishment doesn't need evidence, its not a testable claim.  I don't particularly care about punishment, I'd prefer we had a justice systems whose goal was to reduce crime and used evidence to figure out how to accomplish that goal.


I think it's provable to be a deterrent in some cases. But that's not an argument that should ever be used to promote capital punshment. You seem to have that pretty well sorted out in your mind.

As to it's effect in history, consider it carefully with an understanding of how and why it didn't work as a deterrent. The main reason is because it wasn't administered for a punishment to only murderers.

During the years of deportation to Australia, some convicted criminals chose hanging over deportation. And people were deported for crimes as petty as stealing a loaf of bread. Literally! In fact, it was seldom that capital punishment was carried out for the crime of what we now know as first degree murder.

And then the US experience of somewhat the same behaviour of hanging black people for somewhat more egregious crimes that fell short of first degree.

History should teach us a lesson. Capital punishment is medieval and should be stopped immediately in any country where the practice is still being carried out. Especially modern first world countries.

Maybe a good part of the reason why the US still does it is because it's debatable whether a lot of the US south is modern and first world?

Why would any libertarian argue for capital punishment. Isn't it an obvious contradiction of their entire philosophy?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Death penalty
Reply #45 - Feb 28th, 2018 at 2:14pm
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ahhell wrote on Feb 28th, 2018 at 2:00pm:
If I ever said that I will not believe the death penalty is a deterrent, I misswrote.  I don't believe it is in most cases and doubt evidence be forthcoming to shot that it is a deterrent.  There are specific circumstances which I have described in which there is evidence that it acts as a deterrent.  That evidence is weak and I can see why someone wouldn't be convinced by it. 

Outside of those circumstances, I am unaware of any evidence that the death penalty deters crime.  Even when applied frequently, as it was for most of history.   

I'll give Skychief credit, punishment doesn't need evidence, its not a testable claim.  I don't particularly care about punishment, I'd prefer we had a justice systems whose goal was to reduce crime and used evidence to figure out how to accomplish that goal.
Executed people are deterred from murdering again, even if no one else is.

Large numbers of murders in the U.S. are gang-on-gang drug related. It's laws making drugs illegal that drive this, and without those particular murders, we don't really have a murder problem.

It's not actually the job of our system of justice to reduce crime. In fact, I don't think we have assigned any of our governments to such a "social engineering" project... How about "Midnight Basketball"?

Anyway, besides the laws making drugs illegal, I believe the creation of an "entitlement" mentality in a "welfare" state and the failure in general to teach personal responsibility and respect for others are root causes of crime.

Edit: "Socialist" ideas about "social justice" and the "injustice " of owning property don't help either.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Death penalty
Reply #46 - Feb 28th, 2018 at 2:24pm
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Jeff wrote on Feb 28th, 2018 at 2:14pm:
Executed people are deterred from murdering again, even if no one else is.


Now that's the kind of discussion you must be looking for ahhell!

Quote:
Large numbers of murders in the U.S. are gang-on-gang drug related. It's laws making drugs illegal that drive this, and without those particular murders, we don't really have a murder problem.


Even better ahhell, Jeff has effectively narrowed it down to murders only by gang members. I take full responsibility for that kind of extremism and I'm not stopping soon. I think the fight with extremists can be won. In this case already won when he gets into the land of ridiculous claims such as that!

Quote:
It's not actually the job of our system of justice to reduce crime. In fact, I don't think we have assigned any of our governments to such a "social engineering" project... How about "Midnight Basketball"?

Anyway, besides the laws making drugs illegal, I believe the creation of an "entitlement" mentality in a "welfare" state and the failure in general to teach personal responsibility and respect for others are root causes of crime.

Edit: "Socialist" ideas about "social justice" and the "injustice " of owning property don't help either.


And the rest is his hard feeling against that which I've promoted. He expresses it as socialists being to blame.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Death penalty
Reply #47 - Feb 28th, 2018 at 2:28pm
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Even better ahhell, Jeff has effectively narrowed it down to murders only by gang members.
Most of them are, and most of the rest are family members and friends killing each other.

"Progressives" are responsible for outlawing drugs as well as creating large groups of dependent alienated people.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Death penalty
Reply #48 - Feb 28th, 2018 at 2:52pm
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Jeff wrote on Feb 28th, 2018 at 2:28pm:
Most of them are, and most of the rest are family members and friends killing each other.

"Progressives" are responsible for outlawing drugs as well as creating large groups of dependent alienated people.


So now it's just MOST?

I'm going to consider that a 'wrap' for the day, with you at least. Only the good stuff is yet to come!
  
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Jeff
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Re: Death penalty
Reply #49 - Feb 28th, 2018 at 4:19pm
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So now it's just MOST?
Sorry, I misspoke. Embarrassed

I meant to say "large numbers of" as I did before. (It gets boring saying the same things if you make me use the exact wording every time.... But if that's the only way you can learn, by constant simple explanations, I'm willing to keep trying to teach you.) Kiss
  
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