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DontTread44
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Is the Second Amendment really to promote state militias?
Feb 24th, 2018 at 12:49pm
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Some on the left are arguing that the founders never intended for the people to bear arms, but rather for state militias to prevent uprising or something to that effect.

They also argue that Article III, Section III of the Constitution declares war against the government as "treason": "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them"

I find this hard to believe, because the Founders had many real quotes that dispute this, such as:

"A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined..."
- George Washington, First Annual Address, to both House of Congress, January 8, 1790

"To disarm the people...[i]s the most effectual way to enslave them."

- George Mason, referencing advice given to the British Parliament by Pennsylvania governor Sir William Keith, The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution, June 14, 1788

"If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers, may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual state. In a single state, if the persons intrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair."
- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28
  
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Jeff
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Re: Is the Second Amendment really to promote state militias?
Reply #1 - Feb 24th, 2018 at 12:56pm
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Didn't you post this once or twice before?

Federalist No. 84: Hamilton
           "I go further and affirm that bills of rights, in the sense and to the extent in which they are contended for, are not only unnecessary in the proposed Constitution but would even be dangerous. They would contain various exceptions to powers which are not granted; and, on this very account, would afford a colorable pretext to claim more than were granted. For why declare that things shall not be done which there is no power to do? Why, for instance, should it be said that liberty of the press shall not be restrained, when no power is given by which restrictions may be imposed?"

To paraphrase, "Why, for instance, should it be said that the right to bear arms shall not be infringed, when no power is given by which infringements may be imposed?"
  
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Don_G
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Re: Is the Second Amendment really to promote state militias?
Reply #2 - Feb 24th, 2018 at 1:06pm
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Jeff wrote on Feb 24th, 2018 at 12:56pm:
Didn't you post this once or twice before?

Federalist No. 84: Hamilton
           "I go further and affirm that bills of rights, in the sense and to the extent in which they are contended for, are not only unnecessary in the proposed Constitution but would even be dangerous. They would contain various exceptions to powers which are not granted; and, on this very account, would afford a colorable pretext to claim more than were granted. For why declare that things shall not be done which there is no power to do? Why, for instance, should it be said that liberty of the press shall not be restrained, when no power is given by which restrictions may be imposed?"

To paraphrase, "Why, for instance, should it be said that the right to bear arms shall not be infringed, when no power is given by which infringements may be imposed?"


All the phony imaginings of what the 2A means aside, the gun problem needs to be solved to protect your country's children. The children are a country's most valuable asset. Worth much more than 300 million guns.

It's doubtful that any answers to the gun problem are going to be found in the fanding fouthers 19th. century blathering on guns and militias.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Is the Second Amendment really to promote state militias?
Reply #3 - Feb 24th, 2018 at 1:11pm
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All the phony imaginings of what the 2A means aside, the gun problem needs to be solved...
Limiting government is a much more serious problem. Unlimited governments kill more people than anything else.

Part of the solution to limiting our government is a proper understanding of the powers that have actually been granted to that government.

No power is granted to disarm law abiding people.
  
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DontTread44
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Re: Is the Second Amendment really to promote state militias?
Reply #4 - Feb 24th, 2018 at 1:13pm
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Jeff wrote on Feb 24th, 2018 at 12:56pm:
To paraphrase, "Why, for instance, should it be said that the right to bear arms shall not be infringed, when no power is given by which infringements may be imposed?"


That's easy: Commerce Clause!
  
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Don_G
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Re: Is the Second Amendment really to promote state militias?
Reply #5 - Feb 24th, 2018 at 1:16pm
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Jeff wrote on Feb 24th, 2018 at 1:11pm:
Limiting government is a much more serious problem. Unlimited governments kill more people than anything else.

Part of the solution to limiting our government is a proper understanding of the powers that have actually been granted to that government.

No power is granted to disarm law abiding people.


Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Continuous babbling on about your imaginary rights while school children are being mowed down like cutting the front lawn. Dog blus murca!
  
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Jeff
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Re: Is the Second Amendment really to promote state militias?
Reply #6 - Feb 24th, 2018 at 1:21pm
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DontTread44 wrote on Feb 24th, 2018 at 1:13pm:
That's easy: Commerce Clause!


Federalist No. 41: Madison
           
           "For what purpose could the enumeration of particular powers be inserted, if these and all others were meant to be included in the preceding general power?"

Is that clear to you?

If the commerce clause is a grant of general power, it becomes redundant and unnecessary to grant Congress the power "To coin money, regulate the Value thereof and of foreign Coin, and to fix the Standard of Weights and Measures."

  
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Jeff
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Re: Is the Second Amendment really to promote state militias?
Reply #7 - Feb 24th, 2018 at 1:22pm
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Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Continuous babbling on about your imaginary rights while school children are being mowed down like cutting the front lawn. Dog blus murca!

It is infringement on the right of law abiding people to go armed that makes schools such tempting targets.
  
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kaz
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Re: Is the Second Amendment really to promote state militias?
Reply #8 - Feb 24th, 2018 at 1:25pm
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DontTread44 wrote on Feb 24th, 2018 at 12:49pm:
Some on the left are arguing that the founders never intended for the people to bear arms, but rather for state militias to prevent uprising or something to that effect.

They also argue that Article III, Section III of the Constitution declares war against the government as "treason": "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them"

I find this hard to believe, because the Founders had many real quotes that dispute this, such as:

"A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined..."
- George Washington, First Annual Address, to both House of Congress, January 8, 1790

"To disarm the people...[i]s the most effectual way to enslave them."

- George Mason, referencing advice given to the British Parliament by Pennsylvania governor Sir William Keith, The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution, June 14, 1788

"If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers, may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual state. In a single state, if the persons intrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair."
- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28


That the second amendment was not only placed in the bill of rights, but prominently so is to protect the rights of ... government ... to be armed is completely inane.

Why would they have said government has the right to guns?
  

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Don_G
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Re: Is the Second Amendment really to promote state militias?
Reply #9 - Feb 24th, 2018 at 1:31pm
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Jeff wrote on Feb 24th, 2018 at 1:22pm:
It is infringement on the right of law abiding people to go armed that makes schools such tempting targets.


I don't agree with that but there's little doubt they're tempting targets. As is any large gathering of people. Even gun shows, as has been recently discussed.

You pseudo-libertarians should discuss it! But not with me because nothing I have to say will be said with an aim to help change it. I'm totally convinced that's not possilbe in the foreseeable future.

On second thought, would AR-15's in teachers' desks help? The Las Vegas record can't stand forever!
  
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