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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Is the Second Amendment really to promote state militias? (Read 526 times)
kaz
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Re: Is the Second Amendment really to promote state militias?
Reply #10 - Feb 24th, 2018 at 1:34pm
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I don't agree with that but there's little doubt they're tempting targets. As is any large gathering of people. Even gun shows, as has been recently discussed.

You pseudo-libertarians should discuss it! But not with me because nothing I have to say will be said with an aim to help change it. I'm totally convinced that's not possilbe in the foreseeable future.

On second thought, would AR-15's in teachers' desks help? The Las Vegas record can't stand forever!


Just heard from the judges.  This is technically trolling, but not worthy of a video.  Step it up, Speed Racer
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Jeff
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Re: Is the Second Amendment really to promote state militias?
Reply #11 - Feb 24th, 2018 at 1:35pm
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Even gun shows, as has been recently discussed.


You tossed out some nonsense about mass shootings at gun shows. That doesn't mean is was discussed.

I know for a fact that vendors at guns shows are armed and ready.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Is the Second Amendment really to promote state militias?
Reply #12 - Feb 24th, 2018 at 1:37pm
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Jeff wrote on Feb 24th, 2018 at 1:35pm:
You tossed out some nonsense about mass shootings at gun shows. That doesn't mean is was discussed.

I know for a fact that vendors at guns shows are armed and ready.


We also talked about gun shows being held in school class rooms.

(i'm outta this to go look for a serious thread)
  
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Jeff
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Re: Is the Second Amendment really to promote state militias?
Reply #13 - Feb 24th, 2018 at 1:44pm
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We also talked about gun shows being held in school class rooms.

(i'm outta this to go look for a serious thread)
Ha ha.

Is there a thread you haven't spoiled yet?
  
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DontTread44
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Re: Is the Second Amendment really to promote state militias?
Reply #14 - Feb 24th, 2018 at 7:02pm
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kaz wrote on Feb 24th, 2018 at 1:25pm:
That the second amendment was not only placed in the bill of rights, but prominently so is to protect the rights of ... government ... to be armed is completely inane.

Why would they have said government has the right to guns?


Well, yeah it doesn't make a lot of sense and the Second Amendment literally says, "the right of the people to bear arms shall not be infringed".

This is the article I was reading. It's pretty lengthy and they seem to somewhat know what they are talking about, however I think the author is seriously missing or forgetting the interpretations of Federalism since our country's founding.

Let me know what you think of the article, though.

https://www.alternet.org/comments/news-amp-politics/right-wings-fake-history-sec...
  
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Don_G
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Re: Is the Second Amendment really to promote state militias?
Reply #15 - Feb 24th, 2018 at 7:08pm
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DontTread44 wrote on Feb 24th, 2018 at 7:02pm:
Well, yeah it doesn't make a lot of sense and the Second Amendment literally says, "the right of the people to bear arms shall not be infringed".

This is the article I was reading. It's pretty lengthy and they seem to somewhat know what they are talking about, however I think the author is seriously missing or forgetting the interpretations of Federalism since our country's founding.

Let me know what you think of the article, though.

https://www.alternet.org/comments/news-amp-politics/right-wings-fake-history-sec...


Hellos snake. When are you going to grow up and be part of the real world?

The lives of your country's school children are just a little more important than the claimed freedom to pack heat wherever you go.

And so what did the gov do to you to piss you off so much? Why are you subconsciously hoping that somebody will tread on you?
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Is the Second Amendment really to promote state militias?
Reply #16 - Feb 24th, 2018 at 9:58pm
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DontTread44 wrote on Feb 24th, 2018 at 12:49pm:
Some on the left are arguing that the founders never intended for the people to bear arms, but rather for state militias to prevent uprising or something to that effect.

They also argue that Article III, Section III of the Constitution declares war against the government as "treason": "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them"

I find this hard to believe, because the Founders had many real quotes that dispute this, such as:

"A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined..."
- George Washington, First Annual Address, to both House of Congress, January 8, 1790

"To disarm the people...[i]s the most effectual way to enslave them."

- George Mason, referencing advice given to the British Parliament by Pennsylvania governor Sir William Keith, The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution, June 14, 1788

"If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers, may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual state. In a single state, if the persons intrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair."
- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28


The language of the second amendment sounds exactly like the kind of BS language that comes out of compromise.  They wrote it hoping that the states would ratify it.  So any state that was concerned about the the government taking away weapons would be referred to the part about "the right to keep and bear arms" while any state that was concerned about not being allowed to pass laws regarding privately owned weapons would be referred to the part about a "well-regulated militia."


  

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Jeff
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Re: Is the Second Amendment really to promote state militias?
Reply #17 - Feb 25th, 2018 at 6:56am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Feb 24th, 2018 at 9:58pm:
The language of the second amendment sounds exactly like the kind of BS language that comes out of compromise.  They wrote it hoping that the states would ratify it.  So any state that was concerned about the the government taking away weapons would be referred to the part about "the right to keep and bear arms" while any state that was concerned about not being allowed to pass laws regarding privately owned weapons would be referred to the part about a "well-regulated militia."


Armed citizens as well regulated State Militias were seen as a preventative power against armies raised by Congress. It wasn't (isn't) just about armed citizens v. government, it was about being able to prevent being tyrannized by the federal government with it's power to raise armies.

In order to be useful against an army raised by Congress that was intended to tyrannize, armed citizens would have to be organized and at least minimally trained, "well regulated", and that was (is) a job for the States.

As to the individual right to be armed, it exists for whatever reason individuals believe makes it necessary or useful to them and Congress is granted no power to infringe or deny it.

A Congress with the power to raise armies and deny individuals the right to be armed negates the States' power to regulate Militias and call them out in defense of Liberty, against the armies of Congress if necessary.

Federalist No. 29: Hamilton
           "Little more can reasonably be aimed at with respect to the people at large than to have them properly armed and equipped;"

           "This will not only lessen the call for military establishments, but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude, that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little if any at all inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow citizens."
  
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Don_G
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Re: Is the Second Amendment really to promote state militias?
Reply #18 - Feb 25th, 2018 at 12:26pm
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Jeff wrote on Feb 25th, 2018 at 6:56am:
           "This will not only lessen the call for military establishments, but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude, that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little if any at all inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow citizens."


I have this vision of Americans standing around fondling their guns as the hydrogen bombs drop, turning the Americans to vapour, and then slowly the guns too.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Is the Second Amendment really to promote state militias?
Reply #19 - Feb 25th, 2018 at 4:22pm
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I have this vision of Americans standing around fondling their guns as the hydrogen bombs drop, turning the Americans to vapour, and then slowly the guns too.
You have such a sweet loving nature, for a bloodthirsty autocrat that is.
  
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