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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Which Ideas? (Read 909 times)
kaz
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Re: Which Ideas?
Reply #10 - Feb 26th, 2018 at 8:54am
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 25th, 2018 at 5:25pm:
All of them except those which animals possess.



That should have made it easy then to list some of the rights we want to strip from others, yet you couldn't.

So just list some of the big ones
  

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The Opposition
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Re: Which Ideas?
Reply #11 - Feb 26th, 2018 at 3:36pm
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kaz wrote on Feb 26th, 2018 at 8:54am:
That should have made it easy then to list some of the rights we want to strip from others, yet you couldn't.

So just list some of the big ones


Let Jeff do it. He's the one who defined me out of having any rights. Yet he and Skychief both claim I still have self-defence when you can't have self-defence as a right without self-ownership, which I don't have.

It's illogical and I can't defend it, so let them defend it.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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kaz
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Re: Which Ideas?
Reply #12 - Feb 26th, 2018 at 3:49pm
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 26th, 2018 at 3:36pm:
Let Jeff do it. He's the one who defined me out of having any rights. Yet he and Skychief both claim I still have self-defence when you can't have self-defence as a right without self-ownership, which I don't have.

It's illogical and I can't defend it, so let them defend it.


That isn't what I asked you about.

You claimed that libertarians exclude everyone's rights but our own.  I asked you for examples.  It was your claim, not Jeff's
  

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The Opposition
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Re: Which Ideas?
Reply #13 - Feb 26th, 2018 at 4:04pm
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kaz wrote on Feb 26th, 2018 at 3:49pm:
That isn't what I asked you about.

You claimed that libertarians exclude everyone's rights but our own.  I asked you for examples.  It was your claim, not Jeff's


My example of libertarians defining others out of having rights is Jeff defining me out of having rights. You ask him if he's a libertarian. Ask him about rights, freedom, and limited government. He's for all of that.

I don't know which rights he wants to take away and which ones he doesn't, because he's illogical. He granted me self-defence but not self-ownership, which is a contradiction.

Here's the example:

Jeff wrote on Feb 24th, 2018 at 7:49am:
Even wild beasts have rights of self defense, it's built in as a mechanism to try to perpetuate their species by keeping themselves alive, and it's a right that continues to exist in humans.

Many predators exercise the same sort of unprotected property rights that barbarian tribes of humans did and do, they claim territory by killing or driving away others when they can, or get driven away themselves.

Human rights as civilized people have come to see them depend mostly on people being civilized, by which I mean they understand that other humans have the same rights they do, and that to behave like a barbarian or a predatory animal and take the lives and property of others by force or fraud is wrong.

You have no more rights than an animal
, because your understanding of rights is at the level of a predatory animal. You are a trained tiger, not killing and eating it's trainer because it has learned it will be punished and/or rewarded for acting as if it actually respected the rights of it's trainer, which it doesn't. Like you, a trained tiger can't understand and internalize that others have rights, so it has only animal rights itself.


...Emphasis added.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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kaz
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Re: Which Ideas?
Reply #14 - Feb 26th, 2018 at 4:58pm
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 26th, 2018 at 4:04pm:
My example of libertarians defining others out of having rights is Jeff defining me out of having rights. You ask him if he's a libertarian. Ask him about rights, freedom, and limited government. He's for all of that.

I don't know which rights he wants to take away and which ones he doesn't, because he's illogical. He granted me self-defence but not self-ownership, which is a contradiction.

Here's the example:


...Emphasis added.


So if you're talking about "Jeff" then why don't you say "Jeff" instead of "libertarians?"
  

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Jeff
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Re: Which Ideas?
Reply #15 - Feb 26th, 2018 at 5:21pm
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 26th, 2018 at 3:36pm:
Let Jeff do it. He's the one who defined me out of having any rights.
You said repeatedly you don't have rights, then you claimed everybody has the rights of animals.

I think you are afraid to answer kaz's request.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Which Ideas?
Reply #16 - Feb 26th, 2018 at 5:24pm
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 26th, 2018 at 4:04pm:
My example of libertarians defining others out of having rights is Jeff defining me out of having rights. You ask him if he's a libertarian. Ask him about rights, freedom, and limited government. He's for all of that.

I don't know which rights he wants to take away and which ones he doesn't, because he's illogical. He granted me self-defence but not self-ownership, which is a contradiction.

Here's the example:


...Emphasis added.
You made it clear, you want everyone to be stripped of all rights other than basic animal rights... Do you not even know what rights humans believe animals have? (No, not the vote dumb dumb.)
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Which Ideas?
Reply #17 - Feb 26th, 2018 at 10:14pm
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kaz wrote on Feb 26th, 2018 at 4:58pm:
So if you're talking about "Jeff" then why don't you say "Jeff" instead of "libertarians?"


Jeff is a libertarian. And for the record I only agreed with others who said I didn't have rights. Obviously if I could choose, I would choose to have rights.

Remember how I said I have an impeccable memory?

Well, I hope you also remember what you said about the Confederate flag wavers. They lost the right to do it without espousing all sorts of negative ideas because they never stood up for what the flag really meant.

More people on this forum - the Libertarian's forum - think I don't have rights. You are losing libertarianism to them.

Jeff wrote on Feb 26th, 2018 at 5:24pm:
You made it clear, you want everyone to be stripped of all rights other than basic animal rights... Do you not even know what rights humans believe animals have? (No, not the vote dumb dumb.)


I never said that. I may have said I preferred a world without rights because then everyone is equal, but I don't advocate treating people as if they don't have rights. They do have rights, I must respect them, and that's all there is to the matter.

And how would I know what rights you think animals have when human rights sometimes trump animal rights and sometimes not? It's arbitrary and you define it, so how could I possibly know? It's a matter of knowing which humans are endowed with the special right to abuse them. No, I could only guess at that.

Jeff wrote on Dec 23rd, 2017 at 7:52am:
Slaughtering animals for food according to religious prescripts is not animal abuse.
Slaughtering animals in the same way for fun would be.

Too subtle for you?
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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kaz
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Re: Which Ideas?
Reply #18 - Feb 27th, 2018 at 8:54am
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 26th, 2018 at 10:14pm:
Jeff is a libertarian. And for the record I only agreed with others who said I didn't have rights. Obviously if I could choose, I would choose to have rights.

Remember how I said I have an impeccable memory?

Well, I hope you also remember what you said about the Confederate flag wavers. They lost the right to do it without espousing all sorts of negative ideas because they never stood up for what the flag really meant.

More people on this forum - the Libertarian's forum - think I don't have rights. You are losing libertarianism to them


Yes, I do remember what I said about the Confederate flag, and I believe that.

So if you have such a great memory, why are you still unable to list these "libertarian" rights that libertarians want to use to deprive others of their rights.  You keep repeating it.  Back it up.

Jeff is not a libertarian, he's an establishment Republican.  Establishment Republicans are always talking about spending and taxes being too high, then they never do anything about it.

And before you made clear by "libertarian" you meant "anarchist."  Now by "libertarian" you're saying you mean "Jeff."  Jeff is certainly not an anarchist.  You may have a great memory, but you're short on reasoning and clarity
  

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Jeff
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Re: Which Ideas?
Reply #19 - Feb 27th, 2018 at 9:06am
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 26th, 2018 at 10:14pm:
Remember how I said I have an impeccable memory?


I'm almost sure you said it is infallible...
  
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