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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Which Ideas? (Read 908 times)
Jeff
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Re: Which Ideas?
Reply #20 - Feb 27th, 2018 at 9:10am
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kaz wrote on Feb 27th, 2018 at 8:54am:
.Jeff is not a libertarian, he's an establishment Republican.
I supported the Republican Party until they tossed Goldwater and his supporters out of the Party. Since then, no.
I do believe as I've said that many small 'r' republicans hold libertarian beliefs and positions and libertarians should make common cause with them.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Which Ideas?
Reply #21 - Feb 27th, 2018 at 9:12am
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 26th, 2018 at 4:04pm:
Here's the example:


...Emphasis added.
You claim to be an animal and additionally claim that no one has anything but the rights of animals.

Don't blame me for your shortcomings.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Which Ideas?
Reply #22 - Feb 27th, 2018 at 3:44pm
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kaz wrote on Feb 27th, 2018 at 8:54am:
Yes, I do remember what I said about the Confederate flag, and I believe that.

So if you have such a great memory, why are you still unable to list these "libertarian" rights that libertarians want to use to deprive others of their rights.  You keep repeating it.  Back it up.


I have, with quotes from Jeff and Merkelstan as well as Crystallas. And I agree with them. Don doesn't think I have rights either, but the difference is he denies rights to everybody. That's still five out of what, eight or nine, regular posters?

You're not asking me to back up my assertions that libertarians want to deny me rights. You're asking me to defend and expand on their positions. I can't give you a list because they never generated one, and I can't defend their positions because they self-contradict.

Merkelstan said I have no rights, and Jeff and Skychief say I still have the rights of an animal, specifically including self-defence. It's a completely illogical position since there is no right to self-defence without self-ownership, which animals do not have.

Make them give you a list.

kaz wrote on Feb 27th, 2018 at 8:54am:
Jeff is not a libertarian, he's an establishment Republican.  Establishment Republicans are always talking about spending and taxes being too high, then they never do anything about it.


Okay, so slyly say "libertarians" want me to have rights, when five out of nine who support libertarian positions would deny that. If the people on this forum ran the world, I would not have rights, neither philosophically nor legally. Your attempts to separate "real" libertarians don't change that.

What you're doing is something I call "The Muslim Shuffle". You're a nasty racist if you think Muslims disproportionately commit terrorism because, you see, the ones that do that aren't real Muslims.

kaz wrote on Feb 27th, 2018 at 8:54am:
And before you made clear by "libertarian" you meant "anarchist."  Now by "libertarian" you're saying you mean "Jeff."  Jeff is certainly not an anarchist.  You may have a great memory, but you're short on reasoning and clarity


I mean Jeff, Crystallas, Merkelstan, Don, and I'm including myself because I believe libertarianism is right and I live by it, I just don't like it.

I've been to horrible racist forums like Stormfront, I've been among the hard-left, and I have never been confronted with such a large proportion of people who don't believe I have basic rights. People can't stand me as a rule because I will find exactly where their philosophy breaks down, but so far, only here have people told me essentially to my face that no, I do not have rights, nor should I.

It would be frightening if it was one person, but it's closer to five. And five would be frightening on a forum of twenty or more active posters.

Jeff wrote on Feb 27th, 2018 at 9:12am:
You claim to be an animal and additionally claim that no one has anything but the rights of animals.

Don't blame me for your shortcomings.


I never claimed that. I also never claimed my memory was infallible. I said impeccable.

I've half-jokingly claimed not to be human but that's because I don't see where I have anything in common with a species like yours. But I know I have 23 pairs of chromosomes and a primate makeup even if I don't like it.

You have rights. I never denied that. The worst I said was that I don't like that because I prefer equality. I can prefer whatever I want, but that doesn't make it fact. Rights are fact. You have them. I don't. You expect me to like this?
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Which Ideas?
Reply #23 - Feb 27th, 2018 at 5:11pm
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 27th, 2018 at 3:44pm:
I also never claimed my memory was infallible. I said impeccable.

Right. You have downgraded your estimate since you keep getting caught in lies.

Fool.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Which Ideas?
Reply #24 - Feb 27th, 2018 at 5:13pm
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 27th, 2018 at 3:44pm:
I mean Jeff, Crystallas, Merkelstan, Don, and I'm including myself because I believe libertarianism is right and I live by it, I just don't like it.


It would be frightening if it was one person, but it's closer to five. And five would be frightening on a forum of twenty or more active posters.


I never claimed that. I also never claimed my memory was infallible. I said impeccable.

I've half-jokingly claimed not to be human but that's because I don't see where I have anything in common with a species like yours. But I know I have 23 pairs of chromosomes and a primate makeup even if I don't like it.

Hmmm.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Which Ideas?
Reply #25 - Feb 27th, 2018 at 5:16pm
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 27th, 2018 at 3:44pm:
You have rights. I never denied that.
You say the rights of animals are all anyone has.

I claim human rights, rights you say don't exist.

If you were a better liar, you would be more dangerous to human Liberty.
  
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kaz
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Re: Which Ideas?
Reply #26 - Feb 27th, 2018 at 5:28pm
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 27th, 2018 at 3:44pm:
I have, with quotes from Jeff and Merkelstan as well as Crystallas. And I agree with them. Don doesn't think I have rights either, but the difference is he denies rights to everybody. That's still five out of what, eight or nine, regular posters?

You're not asking me to back up my assertions that libertarians want to deny me rights. You're asking me to defend and expand on their positions. I can't give you a list because they never generated one, and I can't defend their positions because they self-contradict.

Merkelstan said I have no rights, and Jeff and Skychief say I still have the rights of an animal, specifically including self-defence. It's a completely illogical position since there is no right to self-defence without self-ownership, which animals do not have.

Make them give you a list.


Okay, so slyly say "libertarians" want me to have rights, when five out of nine who support libertarian positions would deny that. If the people on this forum ran the world, I would not have rights, neither philosophically nor legally. Your attempts to separate "real" libertarians don't change that.

What you're doing is something I call "The Muslim Shuffle". You're a nasty racist if you think Muslims disproportionately commit terrorism because, you see, the ones that do that aren't real Muslims.


I mean Jeff, Crystallas, Merkelstan, Don, and I'm including myself because I believe libertarianism is right and I live by it, I just don't like it.

I've been to horrible racist forums like Stormfront, I've been among the hard-left, and I have never been confronted with such a large proportion of people who don't believe I have basic rights. People can't stand me as a rule because I will find exactly where their philosophy breaks down, but so far, only here have people told me essentially to my face that no, I do not have rights, nor should I.

It would be frightening if it was one person, but it's closer to five. And five would be frightening on a forum of twenty or more active posters.


I never claimed that. I also never claimed my memory was infallible. I said impeccable.

I've half-jokingly claimed not to be human but that's because I don't see where I have anything in common with a species like yours. But I know I have 23 pairs of chromosomes and a primate makeup even if I don't like it.

You have rights. I never denied that. The worst I said was that I don't like that because I prefer equality. I can prefer whatever I want, but that doesn't make it fact. Rights are fact. You have them. I don't. You expect me to like this?


Crystallis is an anarchist, Jeff is an establishment Republican and Merkelstan and Dan are socialists.  What do they have to do with libertarian?  And even if they were libertarian, who says it isn't a valid argument.

I'm the most mainstream libertarian here as I'm a minarchist.  I oppose all government other than those few functions only a government can do.  You give me a lot of words, but can't just tell me how I would want to deprive you of rights.  I want government to provide only those services that can only be done once and everyone must recognize.  There can't be two sets of roads.  There can't be two police departments or militaries.  Everyone must have a set of criminal and civil courts that they recognize rulings from.  There can be only one.

Postive rights are how people use rights to take from others, and those aren't legitimate rights.  When you can come up with specifics about how I want to trod on your rights, let me know.  Until then I'm chalking it up as BS
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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The Opposition
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Re: Which Ideas?
Reply #27 - Feb 27th, 2018 at 11:09pm
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Jeff wrote on Feb 27th, 2018 at 5:11pm:
Right. You have downgraded your estimate since you keep getting caught in lies.

Fool.


You've never caught me in a lie and I never said my memory was perfect.

I never said any of that other crap you said I said either. I have always admitted you have rights and I must respect them.

kaz wrote on Feb 27th, 2018 at 5:28pm:
Crystallis is an anarchist, Jeff is an establishment Republican and Merkelstan and Dan are socialists.  What do they have to do with libertarian?  And even if they were libertarian, who says it isn't a valid argument.

I'm the most mainstream libertarian here as I'm a minarchist.  I oppose all government other than those few functions only a government can do.  You give me a lot of words, but can't just tell me how I would want to deprive you of rights.  I want government to provide only those services that can only be done once and everyone must recognize.  There can't be two sets of roads.  There can't be two police departments or militaries.  Everyone must have a set of criminal and civil courts that they recognize rulings from.  There can be only one.

Postive rights are how people use rights to take from others, and those aren't legitimate rights.  When you can come up with specifics about how I want to trod on your rights, let me know.  Until then I'm chalking it up as BS


I didn't say you as a person did, I meant libertarians did. You are one of a group of people, who, as a whole, don't believe I have rights.

If libertarianism as it's preached on this forum is implemented in the US, I will lose any rights I have and someone will just shoot me.

No one who self-identifies as a socialist, neo-Nazi, communist, or white supremacist has ever told me I shouldn't have rights. Only people who self-identify as libertarian have said that.

And I'm somewhere in the general neighbourhood of 1/8th to 1/16th Jewish. I've admitted this and self-identified white supremacists give me more rights than self-identified  libertarians do.

Even Hitler would give me more rights than the average self-identified libertarian does. I could tell him to his face I was part Jewish and what would probably happen would be that I would tell them how to fix their damn Enigma code (literally weak pws ruined this) and I'd be a person just like everyone else. Even if the worst case scenario, I go to a concentration camp. I'm sorry but that's hella better than saying people can just shoot me in the street.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Which Ideas?
Reply #28 - Feb 28th, 2018 at 9:15am
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 27th, 2018 at 11:09pm:
I have always admitted you have rights and I must respect them.


And I have always said the all humans are born with the same equal rights.

It's only because I accept your claim to not be human that I say you don't have human rights.
  
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AlayneLeung
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Re: Which Ideas?
Reply #29 - Mar 8th, 2019 at 3:38pm
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My Green Party Pacifist Party leaning Libertarian Party friend chipburcham believes that all animals and all plants, that don't lethally threaten or aren't very aggressive, do have civil rights.  For examples: he thinks honeybees, grasshoppers, ladybugs, polite ants, and plants that aren't poisonous deserve civil rights protections. :lol: While that could perhaps get him some very great good karma, that would be practically impossible to legislate and for law appliers to provide.  Furthermore, law appliers driving to arrest those that violate the "civil rights" of insects are probably going to be driving over (and thus accidentally killing) polite insects such as some ants that could perhaps be on roads.
« Last Edit: Mar 9th, 2019 at 1:40pm by AlayneLeung »  
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