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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Should South Africa Take Back Their Land? (Read 879 times)
Jeff
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Re: Should South Africa Take Back Their Land?
Reply #50 - Mar 1st, 2018 at 4:04pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Mar 1st, 2018 at 3:47pm:
Land is different from a car, as you correctly point out.  Without government, there is no land ownership so no one should cry foul if a new government means new owners. 


Governments tend to claim land "in the name of the people" and the better governments actually let the people take title to the land by giving or selling it to them.

Communists are different, they claim land and property in the name of the people and keep it, not allowing people to own it at all. As such, they are the worst transgressors of property rights. Land that Communists steal from owners never gets owned again by anyone. Land appropriated in Cuba was not given or sold to new owners, and the Communists categorically reject all claims of previous ownership.

BTW, land ownership predates government.

  
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The Opposition
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Re: Should South Africa Take Back Their Land?
Reply #51 - Mar 1st, 2018 at 4:05pm
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SkyChief wrote on Mar 1st, 2018 at 1:52pm:
Then Native Americans should be able to reclaim the US, right?    It was taken from them, too.

(Except Manhattan Island - they sold it for $24!!!   Grin   Grin   Grin)


I think so, yes. Even Manhattan Island. Their laws of the land were that you couldn't own land.

Again, I wouldn't be arguing it this way had I not entirely lost the argument about property restoration before.

I argued that only the thief aggressed, so only the thief should suffer. So the turning of the wheel, and the turning of generations, while it would not erase the wrong, would mean that if you confiscate these peoples' land, it's theft, because they did not aggress. You initiate force against them, and it is aggression.

That was refuted so I changed my view.

kaz wrote on Mar 1st, 2018 at 2:02pm:
Opposition's buying into the whites are always wrong theory


I have adjusted my views a bit since Dissident Right and Norwegian Libertarian were banned. I don't want to be banned.

Those who advocate always favouring the POCs and disadvantaging the whites have solid arguments at this level.

I could tell you exactly where they break down, but I would prefer to do that on another forum where I won't get banned for doing it.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Should South Africa Take Back Their Land?
Reply #52 - Mar 1st, 2018 at 4:10pm
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The Opposition wrote on Mar 1st, 2018 at 4:05pm:
I argued that only the thief aggressed, so only the thief should suffer. So the turning of the wheel, and the turning of generations, while it would not erase the wrong, would mean that if you confiscate these peoples' land, it's theft, because they did not aggress. You initiate force against them, and it is aggression.

That was refuted so I changed my view.
Your view is essentially correct. Do not steal my land, that I worked to pay for and improve and claim it is just to do so because the King of England stole my land from it's original occupants.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Should South Africa Take Back Their Land?
Reply #53 - Mar 1st, 2018 at 4:18pm
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The Opposition wrote on Mar 1st, 2018 at 4:05pm:
Those who advocate always favouring the POCs and disadvantaging the whites have solid arguments at this level.

Racism as a remedy for racism doesn't sound like a good argument to me.

Besides, everybody is some color... "People of Color" is a euphemism for anybody who isn't "white" whatever that might mean...

My Great Grandfather married a woman who was either black or an Indian, depending on who you ask in the family. If she was an Indian I think that makes me an official Indian, but I think the was black, which should make me officially black... and I feel like a black lesbian even though people think I look like a "white" man.

Is it all about external appearances, or what you truly feel yourself to be?
  
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kaz
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Re: Should South Africa Take Back Their Land?
Reply #54 - Mar 1st, 2018 at 4:55pm
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The Opposition wrote on Mar 1st, 2018 at 3:51pm:
Because the article is ambiguous. The article, not I, heavily implies there are restoration claims in on this land anyway


No it wasn't.  It said ownership went back to the 1600s and the process of taking it from whites and giving it to blacks was since apartheid
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Jeff
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Re: Should South Africa Take Back Their Land?
Reply #55 - Mar 1st, 2018 at 6:39pm
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kaz wrote on Mar 1st, 2018 at 4:55pm:
No it wasn't.  It said ownership went back to the 1600s and the process of taking it from whites and giving it to blacks was since apartheid
Right. The idea that only blacks can justly own land in South Africa makes as much sense as saying the Chinese Communists have to give China back to the Nationalists, or that only the Huns can own the Hun Homeland or that Britain should be returned to the Picts.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Should South Africa Take Back Their Land?
Reply #56 - Mar 1st, 2018 at 7:20pm
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Jeff wrote on Mar 1st, 2018 at 4:04pm:
BTW, land ownership predates government.



Examples?


  

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Don_G
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Re: Should South Africa Take Back Their Land?
Reply #57 - Mar 1st, 2018 at 8:04pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Mar 1st, 2018 at 7:20pm:
Examples?




It's almost certainly not true. There could be no land ownershipp without government granting some sort of written titles.

The only other kind of land ownership there could have been before that would have been some individuals claiming a right to a piece of land. That would have been about as effective as somebody shooting the person claiming the land and then he claiming it for himself. Probably happened all the time back then.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Should South Africa Take Back Their Land?
Reply #58 - Mar 1st, 2018 at 8:25pm
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Quote:
It's almost certainly not true. There could be no land ownershipp without government granting some sort of written titles.

The only other kind of land ownership there could have been before that would have been some individuals claiming a right to a piece of land. That would have been about as effective as somebody shooting the person claiming the land and then he claiming it for himself. Probably happened all the time back then.


Probably did.  Another even more common reaction to someone claiming to "own this land" was to laugh at him as if he had said, "Don't look at that bunny shaped cloud! I claimed it for myself!  It's miiiiiine!"  People would say the ancient equivalent of "dude, how can anyone "own land?"
  

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The Opposition
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Re: Should South Africa Take Back Their Land?
Reply #59 - Mar 1st, 2018 at 10:52pm
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Jeff wrote on Mar 1st, 2018 at 4:10pm:
Your view is essentially correct. Do not steal my land, that I worked to pay for and improve and claim it is just to do so because the King of England stole my land from it's original occupants.


You refuted my argument against property restoration.

I said that since only the thief aggresses, only the thief should be punished. I pointed out that any time I work for something, or pay for something, I gain property in it, just the same as I would if I created it.

Alan admitted that if I turn the stolen watch into a time machine, I own the time machine part of it. I have property in the item and everyone seems to understand that I still own the flux capacitor even if it can't be separated from the watch.

I attempted to demonstrate that even if I only buy something, I am still gaining property in it just by buying it. For instance, it shouldn't matter to the above example whether I put the flux capacitor in myself or pay Doc Brown to do it.

So why then is the labour I invested to get the money I used to buy the watch not recognised as itself gaining property in the watch?

I also pointed out that since I didn't steal, force initiated against me to get the watch back is by definition aggression.

And you didn't like any of that.

Jeff wrote on Jun 9th, 2015 at 8:15am:
Opposition, buying stolen property doesn't increase the value of the property.
If ownership rights to purchased stolen property are recognized by law, then more property will be stolen and sold. Besides, the law will have to declare that your rights to your property end if your property is stolen and sold, otherwise the same property will be legally owned by both you and the person who bought it after it was sold.
Requiring that the buyer of stolen property will lose both the property and (perhaps) his investment in it makes people more careful about buying, which makes it harder for thieves to sell stolen property, which is a good thing.


And I even addressed this bit. I said that the original owner loses his rights to the watch if the thief smashes it, so why should the thief selling it be any different?

But you didn't like that either.

Jeff wrote on Jun 10th, 2015 at 7:51am:
Opposition, if you buy a stolen car and spend your money and labor repairing it and repainting it it's still not your car. When the car is returned to it's actual owner, the police will be looking at you to determine if you are aiding and abetting car thieves.
Try to make sure you aren't buying stolen property.


Property is the most basic tenet of libertarian philosophy. If you people can't come to a consensus about how it works, your philosophy is intellectually worthless.

kaz wrote on Mar 1st, 2018 at 4:55pm:
No it wasn't.  It said ownership went back to the 1600s and the process of taking it from whites and giving it to blacks was since apartheid


Then maybe I'm misunderstanding what apartheid has to do with any of it.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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