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The Opposition
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Can Pure Libertarian Capitalism Destroy a Population?
Mar 1st, 2018 at 2:41am
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*pure libertarian capitalism as per the Libertarian Party platform and including open borders

My theory is that overcompetition among workers will lower wages to subsistence value.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/27/us/disneyland-employees-wages.html

...and that you can't necessarily open up shop to compete with Disneyland. Due to intellectual property, Disneyland is a monopoly.

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As a grill fry and a lead cook at Cafe Orleans, Grace Torres, 28, earns anywhere between $12.88 and $18 an hour, depending on her shift, working between 32 and 40 hours a week with a schedule that varies widely. Her husband has also worked as a cook there for several years.

“Every time we get to the end of the month, I have to choose what bills to pay,” she said. “We want kids, but there’s no way we’re going to do that when we can barely afford to feed ourselves.”


Subsistence means no children.

If one worker wants to get paid enough to have children, another worker who wants only enough to support himself will outcompete the first worker and get the job. Why would the company hire the one who wants more money? Only one reason - the other one does not have a skill the first possesses. Unskilled labour will remain at subsistence level.

A large segment of the population, perhaps the entire working class, will be unable to have children.

This problem would fix itself, except for the fact that people in other countries find it incredibly easy to reproduce, and their overpopulation will come in to compete with the capitalist country's workers.

Over and over again, the population will be displaced and die, the cost of having children something the market is unwilling to bear, because it's cheaper not to pay for it.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Can Pure Libertarian Capitalism Destroy a Population?
Reply #1 - Mar 1st, 2018 at 8:03am
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The Opposition wrote on Mar 1st, 2018 at 2:41am:
*pure libertarian capitalism as per the Libertarian Party platform and including open borders

My theory is that overcompetition among workers will lower wages to subsistence value.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/27/us/disneyland-employees-wages.html

...and that you can't necessarily open up shop to compete with Disneyland. Due to intellectual property, Disneyland is a monopoly.


Subsistence means no children.

If one worker wants to get paid enough to have children, another worker who wants only enough to support himself will outcompete the first worker and get the job. Why would the company hire the one who wants more money? Only one reason - the other one does not have a skill the first possesses. Unskilled labour will remain at subsistence level.

A large segment of the population, perhaps the entire working class, will be unable to have children.

This problem would fix itself, except for the fact that people in other countries find it incredibly easy to reproduce, and their overpopulation will come in to compete with the capitalist country's workers.

Over and over again, the population will be displaced and die, the cost of having children something the market is unwilling to bear, because it's cheaper not to pay for it.
You forgot to begin your thought experiment with free markets as one of the givens, which makes all your thinking on the issue a waste of time.

BTW, there are amusement parks all over the country that successfully compete with Disneyland, as evidenced by the fact that they exist.
  
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Re: Can Pure Libertarian Capitalism Destroy a Population?
Reply #2 - Mar 1st, 2018 at 10:13am
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The Opposition wrote on Mar 1st, 2018 at 2:41am:
*pure libertarian capitalism as per the Libertarian Party platform and including open borders

My theory is that overcompetition among workers will lower wages to subsistence value.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/27/us/disneyland-employees-wages.html

...and that you can't necessarily open up shop to compete with Disneyland. Due to intellectual property, Disneyland is a monopoly.


Subsistence means no children.

If one worker wants to get paid enough to have children, another worker who wants only enough to support himself will outcompete the first worker and get the job. Why would the company hire the one who wants more money? Only one reason - the other one does not have a skill the first possesses. Unskilled labour will remain at subsistence level.

A large segment of the population, perhaps the entire working class, will be unable to have children.

This problem would fix itself, except for the fact that people in other countries find it incredibly easy to reproduce, and their overpopulation will come in to compete with the capitalist country's workers.

Over and over again, the population will be displaced and die, the cost of having children something the market is unwilling to bear, because it's cheaper not to pay for it.


Their open borders policy is one of a few reasons I won't join the party.

Sure, as a world goal, I'd agree that if all societies were roughly economically and socially equal, that would be admirable.  But open borders with advanced countries like the US and shithole countries like Mexico is a non starter for a rational mind
  

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Re: Can Pure Libertarian Capitalism Destroy a Population?
Reply #3 - Mar 1st, 2018 at 12:36pm
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The Opposition wrote on Mar 1st, 2018 at 2:41am:
*pure libertarian capitalism as per the Libertarian Party platform and including open borders

My theory is that overcompetition among workers will lower wages to subsistence value.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/27/us/disneyland-employees-wages.html

...and that you can't necessarily open up shop to compete with Disneyland. Due to intellectual property, Disneyland is a monopoly.


Subsistence means no children.

If one worker wants to get paid enough to have children, another worker who wants only enough to support himself will outcompete the first worker and get the job. Why would the company hire the one who wants more money? Only one reason - the other one does not have a skill the first possesses. Unskilled labour will remain at subsistence level.

A large segment of the population, perhaps the entire working class, will be unable to have children.


That's a very good theory, but it has never been supported in practice.  In practice, people tend to have kids no matter how poor they are.  First because of the desire to have sex, which is a pure animal instinct that humans have not been willing or able to control for economic reasons.  Second, because even when birth control is available, people want to have children.  Women in particular will want to have children.  Not being traditionally as burdened with societal expectation of being good providers, they will often be overly optimistic that others will provide for both herself and for her children.  In the states it works out with enforced child support and with welfare.  In poor countries not so much, but the babies keep on coming.   

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This problem would fix itself, except for the fact that people in other countries find it incredibly easy to reproduce, and their overpopulation will come in to compete with the capitalist country's workers.


Yes, it would fix itself when people in poor countries literally starved along with their pre-childbearing aged children.  But as you said, they can just come here instead.  They not only compete with our workers but also with our own "poor" for slices of the welfare pie.

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Over and over again, the population will be displaced and die, the cost of having children something the market is unwilling to bear, because it's cheaper not to pay for it.


Right.  But it hasn't led to starvation in the U.S. but rather to government subsidizing low-wage work through welfare.   We pay for an illegal alien's seven kids needs so he can work for twenty dollars a day which he can live on because his wife stays home and collects welfare.  None of that is technically legal, but it's allowed to happen so it might as well be.
  

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Re: Can Pure Libertarian Capitalism Destroy a Population?
Reply #4 - Mar 1st, 2018 at 1:32pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Mar 1st, 2018 at 12:36pm:
That's a very good theory, but it has never been supported in practice.  In practice, people tend to have kids no matter how poor they are.  First because of the desire to have sex, which is a pure animal instinct that humans have not been willing or able to control for economic reasons.  Second, because even when birth control is available, people want to have children.  Women in particular will want to have children.  Not being traditionally as burdened with societal expectation of being good providers, they will often be overly optimistic that others will provide for both herself and for her children.  In the states it works out with enforced child support and with welfare.  In poor countries not so much, but the babies keep on coming.   


Yes, it would fix itself when people in poor countries literally starved along with their pre-childbearing aged children.  But as you said, they can just come here instead.  They not only compete with our workers but also with our own "poor" for slices of the welfare pie.


Right.  But it hasn't led to starvation in the U.S. but rather to government subsidizing low-wage work through welfare.   We pay for an illegal alien's seven kids needs so he can work for twenty dollars a day which he can live on because his wife stays home and collects welfare.  None of that is technically legal, but it's allowed to happen so it might as well be.


Good for you to have the patience to interpret Oppo's post as something serious. I would have just written it off as more spam. He'll probably take it there soon anyway.

Isn't this just mostly a question of whether or not a country should accept immigrants?

In order to answer the question maybe we need to know just who wants to take in more immigrants, and why? Then we could debate the validity of their position, as to how it effects native Americans/Canadians either negatively or positively? And then if it's worth it to the majority? Assuming the wishes of the majority apply?
  
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Re: Can Pure Libertarian Capitalism Destroy a Population?
Reply #5 - Mar 1st, 2018 at 1:39pm
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Sicklers Dink wrote on Mar 1st, 2018 at 1:32pm:
Good for you to have the patience to interpret Oppo's post as something serious. I would have just written it off as more spam. He'll probably take it there soon anyway.

Isn't this just mostly a question of whether or not a country should accept immigrants?
It's a little more nuanced than that, because the answer has changed over time. 

Before the U.S. was a welfare state with high taxes and heavy regulations, we were almost desperate for more immigrants.  The economy boomed as business took advantage of virtually unlimited resources.  There were plenty of jobs needing workers and the faster they could be filled, the faster the economy could grow.  It was a snowball that could have meant a significant fraction of the population of the earth would concentrate in this land of the free.

Until . . .


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In order to answer the question maybe we need to know just who wants to take in more immigrants, and why? Then we could debate the validity of their position, as to how it effects native Americans/Canadians either negatively or positively? And then if it's worth it to the majority? Assuming the wishes of the majority apply?


I guess that's the question now.  The answer is that immigration helps the immigrants of course but other than that only a very few Americans benefit from it.  Unfortunately, those are the few that have managed to gain control of the political process through its dishonest and relentless campaigns to keep the flow of immigrants steady.  That's not Reps v. Dems, that's elites be non-elites.  Reps are exactly as guilty if not moreso for being hypocritical about it.

If we went back to a free economy, we'd soon start needing immigrants as fast as they could get here.  Regular people could afford to hire them as unskilled labor and their next generation would use the booming economy to afford to hire the next generation of unskilled labor.

  

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Re: Can Pure Libertarian Capitalism Destroy a Population?
Reply #6 - Mar 1st, 2018 at 1:48pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Mar 1st, 2018 at 1:39pm:
It's a little more nuanced than that, because the answer has changed over time. 

Before the U.S. was a welfare state with high taxes and heavy regulations, we were almost desperate for more immigrants.  The economy boomed as business took advantage of virtually unlimited resources.  There were plenty of jobs needing workers and the faster they could be filled, the faster the economy could grow.  It was a snowball that could have meant a significant fraction of the population of the earth would concentrate in this land of the free.

Until . . .



I guess that's the question now.  The answer is that immigration helps the immigrants of course but other than that only a very few Americans benefit from it.  Unfortunately, those are the few that have managed to gain control of the political process through its dishonest and relentless campaigns to keep the flow of immigrants steady.  That's not Reps v. Dems, that's elites be non-elites.  Reps are exactly as guilty if not moreso for being hypocritical about it.

If we went back to a free economy, we'd soon start needing immigrants as fast as they could get here.  Regular people could afford to hire them as unskilled labor and their next generation would use the booming economy to afford to hire the next generation of unskilled labor.



I have always understood the nuanced issue. But I'm not saying I can totally agree with your reply. On this one, I don't consider it important enough to debate further unless it's asked of me in an appropriate way.

However, nuanced or not, the question is still asked. Who wants immigrants and why?

And I say again. We need to know the answer to that question in order to decide on those people's validity.

Frankly, I don't know the answer but I suspect I could chance a guess and say that employers want immigrants. the free market system tells me that's the answer. There's no need to get into an explanation with you.
  
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Re: Can Pure Libertarian Capitalism Destroy a Population?
Reply #7 - Mar 1st, 2018 at 2:05pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Mar 1st, 2018 at 1:39pm:
It's a little more nuanced than that, because the answer has changed over time. 

Before the U.S. was a welfare state with high taxes and heavy regulations, we were almost desperate for more immigrants.  The economy boomed as business took advantage of virtually unlimited resources.  There were plenty of jobs needing workers and the faster they could be filled, the faster the economy could grow.  It was a snowball that could have meant a significant fraction of the population of the earth would concentrate in this land of the free.

Until . . .



I guess that's the question now.  The answer is that immigration helps the immigrants of course but other than that only a very few Americans benefit from it.  Unfortunately, those are the few that have managed to gain control of the political process through its dishonest and relentless campaigns to keep the flow of immigrants steady.  That's not Reps v. Dems, that's elites be non-elites.  Reps are exactly as guilty if not moreso for being hypocritical about it.

If we went back to a free economy, we'd soon start needing immigrants as fast as they could get here.  Regular people could afford to hire them as unskilled labor and their next generation would use the booming economy to afford to hire the next generation of unskilled labor.



Of course we benefit when we bring in skilled and educated immigrants who want to work hard and contribute productively to society.

We do not benefit from our current path of bringing in the dregs from shit hole countries and putting them on welfare
  

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Re: Can Pure Libertarian Capitalism Destroy a Population?
Reply #8 - Mar 1st, 2018 at 2:07pm
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Sicklers Dink wrote on Mar 1st, 2018 at 1:48pm:
I have always understood the nuanced issue. But I'm not saying I can totally agree with your reply. On this one, I don't consider it important enough to debate further unless it's asked of me in an appropriate way.

However, nuanced or not, the question is still asked. Who wants immigrants and why?

And I say again. We need to know the answer to that question in order to decide on those people's validity.

Frankly, I don't know the answer but I suspect I could chance a guess and say that employers want immigrants. the free market system tells me that's the answer. There's no need to get into an explanation with you.


Some employers want cheap labor from unskilled immigrants who aren't subject to the minimum wage.

You've brought this up before. This is why you oppose immigration control in your country?  So companies have access to cheap labor?  Why would you want that?
  

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Re: Can Pure Libertarian Capitalism Destroy a Population?
Reply #9 - Mar 1st, 2018 at 2:33pm
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kaz wrote on Mar 1st, 2018 at 2:05pm:
Of course we benefit when we bring in skilled and educated immigrants who want to work hard and contribute productively to society.

We do not benefit from our current path of bringing in the dregs from shit hole countries and putting them on welfare


Not to make you angry, but I have to disagree with the first part.  Being a first world country, we have plenty of educated and skilled workers.   Even if we did have a shortage of the skilled and educated, rising demand - and thus rising wages - would motivate the unskilled and uneducated to seek training and education. 

We need a steady flow of unskilled immigrants because our current unskilled labor pool doesn't want to labor when welfare is available.  Unskilled immigrants are willing to sweat for a living so that their children can be the skilled and educated workers of the next generation.  Our Americans who have been unskilled and uneducated for a generations are the direct result of the policies of the Democratic Party as I believe you are well aware.

EDIT TO ADD:

As to your second point, we could of course end that problem for both immigrants and American dolees by making it far less comfortable to live off the efforts of others.  Privatizing charity again or opening group homes instead of sending out checks would be a step in that direction.



  

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