Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Can Pure Libertarian Capitalism Destroy a Population?
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Can Pure Libertarian Capitalism Destroy a Population? (Read 835 times)
Sicklers Dink
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 10544
Location: British Columbia
Joined: May 8th, 2017
Re: Can Pure Libertarian Capitalism Destroy a Population?
Reply #60 - Mar 4th, 2018 at 1:35pm
Print Post  
SnarkySack wrote on Mar 3rd, 2018 at 6:04pm:

Take those things away and see whether they are still willing to work for wages that don't pay for their children's food.  I'd bet landowners would pay additional wages rather than try to pick all the damn cotton themselves.  Especially if they are no longer being taxed for all the government bennies.



You're hinting at redistribution of wealth in a different way. The farmer benefits by government affording the benefits the worker requires so the farmer can pay the low wages.

You've sort of introduced a new element into the conversation. I think it's safe to say that the workers are going to get their healthcare one way or another. If they don't then it leads to a very unhappy population that would eventually start considering revolution.

Like it or not, a close look at Cuba tells a familiar story. Whether it was warranted or not is where there's room for debate. But the fact is, it did happen.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 30293
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Can Pure Libertarian Capitalism Destroy a Population?
Reply #61 - Mar 4th, 2018 at 2:28pm
Print Post  
Sicklers Dink wrote on Mar 4th, 2018 at 1:35pm:
Like it or not, a close look at Cuba tells a familiar story. Whether it was warranted or not is where there's room for debate. But the fact is, it did happen.
And look what it got them, generations of poverty under the Castro regime.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SnarkySack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 3106
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: Can Pure Libertarian Capitalism Destroy a Population?
Reply #62 - Mar 5th, 2018 at 9:32am
Print Post  
Sicklers Dink wrote on Mar 4th, 2018 at 1:35pm:
You're hinting at redistribution of wealth in a different way. The farmer benefits by government affording the benefits the worker requires so the farmer can pay the low wages.
Correct, that's why I said that the low wage labor is actually costly.  It only seems low-wage to the farmer because the taxpayers are supplementing the workers' pay with welfare benefits.

Quote:
You've sort of introduced a new element into the conversation. I think it's safe to say that the workers are going to get their healthcare one way or another. If they don't then it leads to a very unhappy population that would eventually start considering revolution.


Three things about that idea:

-We don't want to go down the road of saying that the productive have to support the non-productive or they will revolt.  What would be the result of such a revolution but that the new revolutionary government would take our wealth and transfer it to the poor?  Saying we should give them our wealth to prevent that is like saying I should give my meth-addicted neighbor my TV because if I don't, he'll steal it anyway.

-Such revolutions always rely on middle class leaders and young, easily led, poor or working class.  That won't happen on the basis of health care for the same reason that Obamacare is a failure.  Young people don't care about health care and they certainly don't want to pay high premiums for insurance they think they will never need so that older people can heart transplants.  Nor will they risk their lives fighting for that.

-Such revolutions never bring about better health care for the poor.  What they supposedly do is bring down the level of health care for everyone else so that we have equality.  But that only happens to the productive middle class.  The new political elites naturally exempt themselves from this new low standard of care.


Quote:
Like it or not, a close look at Cuba tells a familiar story. Whether it was warranted or not is where there's room for debate. But the fact is, it did happen.


But not because of health care.
  

I used to be burnsred . . .
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 6742
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: Can Pure Libertarian Capitalism Destroy a Population?
Reply #63 - Mar 5th, 2018 at 11:51am
Print Post  
SnarkySack wrote on Mar 5th, 2018 at 9:32am:
Correct, that's why I said that the low wage labor is actually costly.  It only seems low-wage to the farmer because the taxpayers are supplementing the workers' pay with welfare benefits.


I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I think this is a problem with capitalism, not welfare.

I think people who say the reason the business refuses to pay the worker enough to live is the welfare are putting the cart before the horse.

There's no question that government is always willing to take advantage of a situation to empower themselves, but in this case, the situation is there for them to take advantage of.

Even if a business is willing to pay people enough to stay alive, this does not include children and it means sleeping in a car on the side of the road.

So let's say the latter isn't a problem. An entire class of people not being paid enough to have children is worrisome. The population will be displaced until we get a population that doesn't want to be displaced, and then there's going to be trouble.

They're going to demand it gets "fixed" and we'll just have welfare again.

So what's so terribly wrong with keeping welfare now? The only difference is that we won't have to suffer through population displacements until we get a more angry, violent, entitled population.
  

Making Sci-Fi great again since 2063.

Not taking Jeff seriously until he admits this is animal abuse (which he says should be illegal): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE-IT7_CaE4
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Sicklers Dink
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 10544
Location: British Columbia
Joined: May 8th, 2017
Re: Can Pure Libertarian Capitalism Destroy a Population?
Reply #64 - Mar 5th, 2018 at 11:59am
Print Post  
SnarkySack wrote on Mar 5th, 2018 at 9:32am:
-Such revolutions never bring about better health care for the poor.  What they supposedly do is bring down the level of health care for everyone else so that we have equality.  But that only happens to the productive middle class.  The new political elites naturally exempt themselves from this new low standard of care.


Cuba's revolution brought the people health care that is rated one position down from US health care. US is #37 and Cuba is #38, according to the World Health Org.

I get your point on young people not rising up over health care though, even though that was a 'result' of Cuba's revolution.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 30293
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Can Pure Libertarian Capitalism Destroy a Population?
Reply #65 - Mar 5th, 2018 at 5:26pm
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Mar 5th, 2018 at 11:51am:
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I think this is a problem with capitalism, not welfare.

If you define "capitalism" as Marx did, as some sort of crony mercantile system, yes it has huge problems.

The American experiment proved decisively that free markets under a rule of law are far superior.

Tyrannical governments and other sorts of crony governments hated the idea since the beginning because it eliminates chances for governments and their cronies to get powerful and rich, which is what mercantile systems try to do, make the government and it's cronies rich.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 30293
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Can Pure Libertarian Capitalism Destroy a Population?
Reply #66 - Mar 5th, 2018 at 5:34pm
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Mar 5th, 2018 at 11:51am:
I think people who say the reason the business refuses to pay the worker enough to live...
Businesses pay what the market for the type of labor they require demands.

If you know how to maintain and repair all the fancy equipment modern hospitals use, you can command a very nice salary.

If you are worthless to any business as any sort of labor, that is you are barely literate or illiterate and can't do arithmetic and are either unwilling or unable to do simple manual labor, and have not bothered to learn how to use your body so that you are completely inept at mechanical skills...

Nobody wants to hire you just to support your useless carcass. Why would they? Businesses need employees that can perform the tasks that the business needs to accomplish.

Edit:The costs to businesses of taxes and regulations are very large, and when possible, businesses try to take those costs out of labor or materials or improved efficiency, which is why they are buying and using so many robots.

Reduce the cost of taxes and regulations, and more businesses will have more available to pay workers. Or buy robots.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 6742
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: Can Pure Libertarian Capitalism Destroy a Population?
Reply #67 - Mar 5th, 2018 at 10:59pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Mar 5th, 2018 at 5:34pm:
If you are worthless to any business as any sort of labor, that is you are barely literate or illiterate and can't do arithmetic and are either unwilling or unable to do simple manual labor, and have not bothered to learn how to use your body so that you are completely inept at mechanical skills...

Nobody wants to hire you just to support your useless carcass. Why would they? Businesses need employees that can perform the tasks that the business needs to accomplish.


This - to be a worthless carcass - is unacceptable for people who have finished High School in good standing.

Yet half of college graduates can't find jobs now. Degrees in basketweaving or other useless nonsense aren't the norm - they're the exception.

And what are we doing with these educated, worthless carcasses? Not letting them teach. The US is importing teachers.

Subsidising babies through welfare and allowing high levels of immigration choke the labourer out of the labour market. This is, I believe, intentional. We keep getting more and more people, and importing even more people, but we've got the same amount of people who actually own the means of production as before. We're not importing land or factories. Just people.

Try to understand that this is the whole point of this topic. Capitalism works as advertised and produces prosperity when market forces are allowed to cause labour, and the demand for it, to reach an equilibrium.

The only trouble is, a pure libertarian country (as per the libertarian party website) can't reach this equilibrium because it has open borders!
  

Making Sci-Fi great again since 2063.

Not taking Jeff seriously until he admits this is animal abuse (which he says should be illegal): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE-IT7_CaE4
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 30293
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Can Pure Libertarian Capitalism Destroy a Population?
Reply #68 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 6:31am
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Mar 5th, 2018 at 10:59pm:
This - to be a worthless carcass - is unacceptable for people who have finished High School in good standing.

Yet half of college graduates can't find jobs now.
Lots of High School diplomas are meaningless, and lots of college graduates are unskilled, barely literate, can't do arithmetic and know nothing of use to any business. To make it even worse, they graduate from college without having ever worked at any sort of job anywhere.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 30293
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Can Pure Libertarian Capitalism Destroy a Population?
Reply #69 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 6:40am
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Mar 5th, 2018 at 10:59pm:
Subsidising babies through welfare and allowing high levels of immigration choke the labourer out of the labour market.
People willing to take entry level jobs and work at doing them well are not "choked out of the market", they are entering the market and showing what they have to offer in a concrete way.

People unwilling to enter the labor market at the entry level because they have been sold the idea that if they get a college "degree" they can enter the labor market as "managers" and not ever have to actually work are finding, in large numbers, that they are actually useless in the market for labor, and can only get the type of entry level job they should have been trying to get when they were in High School... And because their parents will support them, or they can get "welfare", they won't take entry level or manual labor jobs, which they aren't qualified for anyway having never learned how to work at anything.

Such people are choking themselves out of the labor market.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Can Pure Libertarian Capitalism Destroy a Population?
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy