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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) "I like taking the guns early . . . Take the guns now and . . . (Read 870 times)
SkyChief
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Re: "I like taking the guns early . . . Take the guns now and . . .
Reply #30 - Mar 1st, 2018 at 11:50pm
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Sicklers Dink wrote on Mar 1st, 2018 at 8:24pm:
You're saying that the government run postal service could support itself. I understand it does!

It might in Canada!

Here in the US... nope.  The postal svc is heavily subsidized with federal funding...it would collapse under it's own weight if it were not.

“The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money.”  - Margaret Thatcher
  
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Sicklers Dink
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Re: "I like taking the guns early . . . Take the guns now and . . .
Reply #31 - Mar 1st, 2018 at 11:54pm
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SkyChief wrote on Mar 1st, 2018 at 11:50pm:
It might in Canada!

Here in the US... nope.  The postal svc is heavily subsidized with federal funding...it would collapse under it's own weight if it were not.

“The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money.”  - Margaret Thatcher


I've heard that's a big lie. The government steals money from the postal service to make it look like it's not self-sufficient.

Wasn't getting caught in one lie today enough?


https://about.usps.com/news/national-releases/2017/pr17_069.htm
                       


  
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Re: "I like taking the guns early . . . Take the guns now and . . .
Reply #32 - Mar 2nd, 2018 at 12:34am
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Sicklers Dink wrote on Mar 1st, 2018 at 11:54pm:
I've heard that's a big lie. The government steals money from the postal service to make it look like it's not self-sufficient.

Wasn't getting caught in one lie today enough?


Hands down - You earned it!:



Poor Don_G.  Still as clueless as you ever were. LoL.  Smiley 

You Doubled-down on stupid.  Now clean up this mess that you've made.  And go to your room.  Angry

Smiley
  
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Jeff
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Re: "I like taking the guns early . . . Take the guns now and . . .
Reply #33 - Mar 2nd, 2018 at 8:38am
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SnarkySack wrote on Mar 1st, 2018 at 7:57pm:
It is you and Jeff who think the constitution is libertarian.
It is. It annoys the anarchist fringe of the modern libertarian philosophy, but it is intended to preserve the Blessings of Liberty.
  
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Jeff
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Re: "I like taking the guns early . . . Take the guns now and . . .
Reply #34 - Mar 2nd, 2018 at 8:40am
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Sicklers Dink wrote on Mar 1st, 2018 at 8:24pm:
You're saying that the government run postal service could support itself. I understand it does!


Not even close.

http://fortune.com/2015/03/27/us-postal-service/
  
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Jeff
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Re: "I like taking the guns early . . . Take the guns now and . . .
Reply #35 - Mar 2nd, 2018 at 9:00am
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The Opposition wrote on Mar 1st, 2018 at 11:37pm:
It doesn't. Consent of the governed is a complex issue and it's difficult to get the people on this very board to agree what exactly it's defined by.
Yes. Some people think individual agreement is the essential element,  that anyone who doesn't personally agree is (or should be) exempt from the law.

Others think 'democracy' is all that's necessary, but that laws must be re-authorized by a majority vote of every new generation, or maybe every year, or every four years or something.

The Compromise of 1850 accepted California into the Union as a Free State, with the proviso that other newly organized States would use a process called "popular sovereignty" to determine if they would be Free or slave.

Popular sovereignty was just another way of saying "consent of the governed". Of course the newly organized States applying for admission to he Union only let white men vote, but if a majority of white men wanted their new State to  allow human slavery, that was deemed an expression of popular sovereignty, it was assumed that the Slaver government was ruling the new state by "consent of the governed". (And slaver governments did rule. They ruled over slaves as absolute despots.)

It was people like the slavers who perverted the meaning of consent of the governed, which means in fact nothing more that having a system of government that has been consented to by the people and can be changed by the people, and only by the people.

We have such a system of government in the U.S. It can be altered by the legal process of Article V, and only by that means. Other than a resort to violent revolution.
  
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Re: "I like taking the guns early . . . Take the guns now and . . .
Reply #36 - Mar 2nd, 2018 at 9:59am
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kaz wrote on Mar 1st, 2018 at 11:23pm:
The difference is consent of the governed.  The government is not stealing if it has consent of the governed and building roads is recognized as a legitimate function of the government.

Like in ours.


We have consent for our current government.  Yes, the building of roads and not just post roads as stated in the constitution.  We consent to everything government is doing including midnight basketball and multiple undeclared wars.   The fact that our government ignores the constitution doesn't mean we don't consent to that government.

Far less that half the citizens of voting age could tell you with any lucidity how our government violates the constitution.  Few have read it.  "That's unconstitutional!" has come to mean nothing more than "I don't like that."  Our role as libertarians should be to convince people to stop consenting to a government that refuses to follow its own rules, not to pretend that people already don't consent.   

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Living my entire life a half mile from my home because government can't build roads and I have to sit in a tower all day protecting my property because there are no police and no courts does not maximize my liberty.  It just doesn't.


If you would sit at home because the government hasn't built you a road yet, then you should have no complaints against any nanny state.  Police and courts are indeed the only ones who can protect land-as-property.  Therefore any claim that land-as-property predates government is completely illogical.

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This is a libertarian board.  John Locke is the father of classic liberalism.  That consent of the govern[ed] goes over your and the head of others on the board is frankly inane


I think we just disagree about how consent can be expressed or withdrawn.  That's not insanity, that's just disagreement. 

I've explained before that the constitution's provision for amendments doesn't provide a realistic way for people to withdraw consent.  For one thing the large fractions of lawmakers required for an amendment to be passed and ratified mean that a small fraction can stop them.  Tyranny of the minority.  For another, it is the same lawmakers who are in power under the current constitution who would be asked to initiate voting on a new one.  Needless to say, they would never do that.

It is because of the over-reach of the judicial branch that the constitution is so thoroughly ignored.  Yet the voters consistently vote for politicians who appoint such judges.   Claiming that we don't consent to the massive federal government we have now misses the point completely.
  

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Re: "I like taking the guns early . . . Take the guns now and . . .
Reply #37 - Mar 2nd, 2018 at 12:38pm
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Jeff wrote on Mar 2nd, 2018 at 8:40am:


We have competing links but mine's newer.

https://about.usps.com/news/national-releases/2017/pr17_069.htm

I think what is happening is government run industries will be promoted by presidents such as Obama and destroyed by others like Trump.

Why that attitude to destroy the USPS is a mystery. It makes money and it pays it's workers well. It seems like a rush to courier services where workers are paid closed to minimum wage.

Even if the USPS lost money it would still seem to me to be an institution to support.

Equate this attitude to Trump's current failing on promoting trade wars to satisfy the kneejerk demands of his base. Make America great again by keeping US jobs that pay well.

What 'will' happen is that both the R and the D's in congress will turn thumbs down on Trump's silly ideas. In fact Paul Ryan already has!

In any case, if any of it continues, both Canada and the EU have already promised to fight back.

I rather hope it does because Trump needs a smackdown everybody can see clearly!
  
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Re: "I like taking the guns early . . . Take the guns now and . . .
Reply #38 - Mar 2nd, 2018 at 12:46pm
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Sicklers Dink wrote on Mar 2nd, 2018 at 12:38pm:
We have competing links but mine's newer.

https://about.usps.com/news/national-releases/2017/pr17_069.htm

I think what is happening is government run industries will be promoted by presidents such as Obama and destroyed by others like Trump.

Why that attitude to destroy the USPS is a mystery. It makes money and it pays it's workers well. It seems like a rush to courier services where workers are paid closed to minimum wage.

Even if the USPS lost money it would still seem to me to be an institution to support.




And it would be if it did start losing money.  I have no idea if it really is self-supporting or not.  If so, then it is a great example of a government function being supported on a fee basis.  I would also like for people to buy stamps to put on contracts that they would like the government to enforce.  The patent office and the copyright office could be funded the same way.  Right now it costs between 35 and 85 dollars to register a copyright.  If that's not enough to run the office on and pay for courts in the event of litigation about copyrights, then raise the fees.  Same for the patent office.

Hypothetically, suppose that would mean it costs $1,000 to file for a patent.  Too much?  Don't get a patent, then.  If an inventor doesn't think legally protecting his invention is worth $1,000, why should I have to help pay for it?

The Post Office isn't exactly the ideal because it has a government granted monopoly on first class mail without which it might fail and it has the safety net of government support that FedEx and UPS do not.




  

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Re: "I like taking the guns early . . . Take the guns now and . . .
Reply #39 - Mar 2nd, 2018 at 12:57pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Mar 2nd, 2018 at 12:46pm:
And it would be if it did start losing money.  I have no idea if it really is self-supporting or not.  If so, then it is a great example of a government function being supported on a fee basis.  I would also like for people to buy stamps to put on contracts that they would like the government to enforce.  The patent office and the copyright office could be funded the same way.  Right now it costs between 35 and 85 dollars to register a copyright.  If that's not enough to run the office on and pay for courts in the event of litigation about copyrights, then raise the fees.  Same for the patent office.

Hypothetically, suppose that would mean it costs $1,000 to file for a patent.  Too much?  Don't get a patent, then.  If an inventor doesn't think legally protecting his invention is worth $1,000, why should I have to help pay for it?

The Post Office isn't exactly the ideal because it has a government granted monopoly on first class mail without which it might fail and it has the safety net of government support that FedEx and UPS do not.





I hear you and I understand that your argument is quite valid. Nobody should remain silent if a government institution is losing money when a private company can do it better and cheaper.

But my approach would be to subsidize some government enterprise with another that is profitable if there were obvious social gains to be had by doing so.

Please read that for what it says. Not to say it can or cannot happen. Just that it's a sane approach to the issue.

I know it may very well be impossible, but it may also be possible. I have no argument either way.

Now concerning the USPS, if it's not a money loser and it pays high wages, then ......................
  
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