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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) If Teachers are Armed, Police will Shoot Them instead of Attackers (Read 399 times)
SnarkySack
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If Teachers are Armed, Police will Shoot Them instead of Attackers
Mar 2nd, 2018 at 2:41pm
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Don't believe me?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/03/02/man-disarms-would-be-church-shooter-gets-sh...

A man disarmed a would-be hostage shooter at a church in Amarillo, Texas, but when officers arrived, he was shot twice.

On Feb. 14, the same day the Florida school shooter killed 17 people, a gunman barged into the Faith City Mission during morning church service.

Police said the initial call just before 9 a.m. referenced an armed suspect holding approximately 100 people hostage in the chapel.

Just before police arrived, Tony Garces, a student at the city mission, snatched the handgun away from the would-be killer after others wrestled him to the ground.

“I took the gun away from a man who attempted to take others in the church hostage,” Garces told Fox News. “He already fired off one shot and I wasn’t going to let him fire again.”

Tony Garces shows his injuries from being shot twice by police. Garces disarmed a gunman at a Texas church before police arrived on scene and shot him.  (Jeff Blackburn)

But when Amarillo police officers arrived through two locations, Garces’ heroic move put him in unexpected danger.

“I thought it was over, but they – the cops – shot me,” Garces told the local news. “The good guys shot me.”

When officers told Garces to throw the gun down, he hesitated for fear that the gun would discharge and harm someone. Instead, he tried to put the gun on the floor – that’s when he said he was shot twice.

Garces was rushed to the hospital and the man who was the actual gunman, Joshua Len Jones, was arrested. Jones is facing six charges of aggravated kidnapping.

Today, Garces is out and back on his feet after spending time at Northwest Texas Hospital for a blood clot in his lung and now faces steep medical bills, probably a lot of long-term physical problems, and a possible legal battle with the city of Amarillo, according to his lawyer, Jeff Blackburn.


Police don't like citizens to have guns, even though any honest cop will admit that police are useless in most crime-in-progress situations because response time is so long.  When did we reach the point where police give people the death penalty for anything other than instant compliance?

  

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Sicklers Dink
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Re: If Teachers are Armed, Police will Shoot Them instead of Attackers
Reply #1 - Mar 2nd, 2018 at 2:57pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Mar 2nd, 2018 at 2:41pm:
Don't believe me?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/03/02/man-disarms-would-be-church-shooter-gets-sh...

A man disarmed a would-be hostage shooter at a church in Amarillo, Texas, but when officers arrived, he was shot twice.

On Feb. 14, the same day the Florida school shooter killed 17 people, a gunman barged into the Faith City Mission during morning church service.

Police said the initial call just before 9 a.m. referenced an armed suspect holding approximately 100 people hostage in the chapel.

Just before police arrived, Tony Garces, a student at the city mission, snatched the handgun away from the would-be killer after others wrestled him to the ground.

“I took the gun away from a man who attempted to take others in the church hostage,” Garces told Fox News. “He already fired off one shot and I wasn’t going to let him fire again.”

Tony Garces shows his injuries from being shot twice by police. Garces disarmed a gunman at a Texas church before police arrived on scene and shot him.  (Jeff Blackburn)

But when Amarillo police officers arrived through two locations, Garces’ heroic move put him in unexpected danger.

“I thought it was over, but they – the cops – shot me,” Garces told the local news. “The good guys shot me.”

When officers told Garces to throw the gun down, he hesitated for fear that the gun would discharge and harm someone. Instead, he tried to put the gun on the floor – that’s when he said he was shot twice.

Garces was rushed to the hospital and the man who was the actual gunman, Joshua Len Jones, was arrested. Jones is facing six charges of aggravated kidnapping.

Today, Garces is out and back on his feet after spending time at Northwest Texas Hospital for a blood clot in his lung and now faces steep medical bills, probably a lot of long-term physical problems, and a possible legal battle with the city of Amarillo, according to his lawyer, Jeff Blackburn.


Police don't like citizens to have guns, even though any honest cop will admit that police are useless in most crime-in-progress situations because response time is so long.  When did we reach the point where police give people the death penalty for anything other than instant compliance?



Your last paragraph. I'm assuming you want a serious discussion.

Here's a gift for you. If teachers were armed in some schools, the shooters would likely choose the schools that didn't have armed teachers.

Here's what I want back in return for the gift:

Police have resorted to the extreme as a result of the threat they face when arriving at a crime scene. So which came first, the proliferation of criminals with guns or the bad policing?
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: If Teachers are Armed, Police will Shoot Them instead of Attackers
Reply #2 - Mar 2nd, 2018 at 3:45pm
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Sicklers Dink wrote on Mar 2nd, 2018 at 2:57pm:
Your last paragraph. I'm assuming you want a serious discussion.

Here's a gift for you. If teachers were armed in some schools, the shooters would likely choose the schools that didn't have armed teachers.

Here's what I want back in return for the gift:

Police have resorted to the extreme as a result of the threat they face when arriving at a crime scene. So which came first, the proliferation of criminals with guns or the bad policing?


The proliferation of criminals with guns predates our current rash of police wrongful shootings by a couple of centuries.  In the twenties, Sears and Roebuck sold fully automatic Thompson sub-machine guns through mail order.  The picture in the ad showed a farmer shooting coyotes with it. 

Guns have been available in the U.S. to criminals and anyone else since the U.S. was formed.  It was only in the last ten years or so that police have found it necessary to execute people for moving their hands or placing instead of dropping loaded guns on the floor.

Thank you for the gift, BTW.  But I think you are assuming I like this "school marshal" idea of arming teachers.  At most, I would prefer a "don't ask, don't tell" policy in which teachers with existing carry permits are not forbidden to bring them, but they are forbidden to let anyone know they have them. 

It's hard to list all the reasons that a program in which school district officials recruit and train teachers as armed security is a bad idea.




  

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The Opposition
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Re: If Teachers are Armed, Police will Shoot Them instead of Attackers
Reply #3 - Mar 2nd, 2018 at 3:59pm
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Sicklers Dink wrote on Mar 2nd, 2018 at 2:57pm:
Police have resorted to the extreme as a result of the threat they face when arriving at a crime scene. So which came first, the proliferation of criminals with guns or the bad policing?


People here aren't going to like this, but rights are to blame. People, including criminals, are demanding - and getting - more rights all the time.

Each time an attacker is shot, a badge is demanded.

That policeman had no right to shoot that person! That criminal has rights!

Is it any wonder that they're unwilling to shoot attackers?

You can say they should do the right thing anyway, but how are they supposed to know it's right when the entire world is against them for doing it? Every citizen, every newspaper, and even the police department which is paying them to do the job their way.
  

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Jeff
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Re: If Teachers are Armed, Police will Shoot Them instead of Attackers
Reply #4 - Mar 2nd, 2018 at 4:23pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Mar 2nd, 2018 at 2:41pm:
Don't believe me?


No. If teachers and administrators are armed the "shooters" will almost always be shot dead long before the police get there.
  
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Jeff
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Re: If Teachers are Armed, Police will Shoot Them instead of Attackers
Reply #5 - Mar 2nd, 2018 at 4:27pm
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The Opposition wrote on Mar 2nd, 2018 at 3:59pm:
People here aren't going to like this, but rights are to blame. People, including criminals, are demanding - and getting - more rights all the time.

Each time an attacker is shot, a badge is demanded.

That policeman had no right to shoot that person! That criminal has rights!

Is it any wonder that they're unwilling to shoot attackers?

You can say they should do the right thing anyway, but how are they supposed to know it's right when the entire world is against them for doing it? Every citizen, every newspaper, and even the police department which is paying them to do the job their way.
fooch
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: If Teachers are Armed, Police will Shoot Them instead of Attackers
Reply #6 - Mar 3rd, 2018 at 7:56am
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Jeff wrote on Mar 2nd, 2018 at 4:23pm:
No. If teachers and administrators are armed the "shooters" will almost always be shot dead long before the police get there.


How will that stop police from shooting when the enter the school and see a person with a gun?
  

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Jeff
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Re: If Teachers are Armed, Police will Shoot Them instead of Attackers
Reply #7 - Mar 3rd, 2018 at 8:29am
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SnarkySack wrote on Mar 3rd, 2018 at 7:56am:
How will that stop police from shooting when the enter the school and see a person with a gun?
When they get to the school, they will see the Principal and staff outside waiting for them. If anyone was hurt, the ambulances will probably beat the police there too, and the police will see injured people being loaded into ambulances. If the police are listening to their dispatchers, they will know that the Math teacher already took the shooter out.

BTW, if you ever get in any sort of similar situation, once you have killed the shooter, you should make your weapon safe and holster it, or put it back in your desk drawer in safe condition.

It's a bad idea to greet nervous police while holding a gun.
  
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Sicklers Dink
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Re: If Teachers are Armed, Police will Shoot Them instead of Attackers
Reply #8 - Mar 3rd, 2018 at 12:25pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Mar 2nd, 2018 at 3:45pm:
The proliferation of criminals with guns predates our current rash of police wrongful shootings by a couple of centuries.  In the twenties, Sears and Roebuck sold fully automatic Thompson sub-machine guns through mail order.  The picture in the ad showed a farmer shooting coyotes with it. 

Guns have been available in the U.S. to criminals and anyone else since the U.S. was formed.  It was only in the last ten years or so that police have found it necessary to execute people for moving their hands or placing instead of dropping loaded guns on the floor.


I'm assuming you're right in what you say but I doubt it's just the last ten years. I think it's been slowly escalating over more than ten years. Perhaps since the 60's. But you didn't provide an alternative answer to my suggestion that police are afraid for their own lives because of the proliferation of guns on the street.

Quote:
Thank you for the gift, BTW.  But I think you are assuming I like this "school marshal" idea of arming teachers.  At most, I would prefer a "don't ask, don't tell" policy in which teachers with existing carry permits are not forbidden to bring them, but they are forbidden to let anyone know they have them. 


I was wrongly assuming that you supported arming teachers. But only partially wrong because you support guns being carried by teachers on a 'don't ask, don't tell' basis. I'm opposed to that because I think that allowing guns in the school is the wrong approach. It's not addressing the root problem.

Quote:
It's hard to list all the reasons that a program in which school district officials recruit and train teachers as armed security is a bad idea.


I agree but I think your alternative would be as bad. There would be no training. Or, would the training be discreet so that nobody knew who was trained and who was armed.

I should just say that the argument I'm presenting here has to do with the police over reacting and shooting too many citizens and/or bystanders. I think my explanation is correct but I'm interested in hearing your alternative explanation?





  
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Jeff
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Re: If Teachers are Armed, Police will Shoot Them instead of Attackers
Reply #9 - Mar 3rd, 2018 at 12:59pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Mar 2nd, 2018 at 3:45pm:
The proliferation of criminals with guns predates our current rash of police wrongful shootings by a couple of centuries.
There was a relative "rash" of criminals shooting at police during alcohol Prohibition, but until recently, it was an anomaly.

Now people are shooting at the police in big "progressively" controlled inner city ghettos that were created by the "progressive" Great Society programs.

Going into places where people shoot at them at random just for being police makes the cops nervous and angry.
  
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