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Snarky Sack
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Minimum Age for Libertarian Rights?
Mar 5th, 2018 at 9:42am
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I've always said that libertarianism is for grownups.  I'm wondering what age being "grown up" should start.  I don't think it's ideal to put an arbitrary number on it.  My kids were fully competent, trustworthy and able to understand how rights work well before they were 18.  But I have known plenty of early-twenties folks who still thought and acted like teenagers.  But I don't know how else to go about determining who is ready to be an adult and who isn't other than age.

  

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ahhell
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Re: Minimum Age for Libertarian Rights?
Reply #1 - Mar 5th, 2018 at 10:27am
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Arbitrary ages are just a convenience, nobody thinks that folks suddenly become responsible at 16, 18, or 21, its just easier to say, "at this age most people will be capable of making these decisions."

Science(via functional MRI studies) says that our brains to function like an adults until some time around 25 years old for most people.  25 just isn't practical for most purposes. 


Psychology seems to back up the MRI studies but, that science is a lot less certain than neurology. 

Edit to add:

Regarding your own kids, other folks might disagree with your assesment.  You aren't the most unbiased observer of your own kids.  As I often say of mine, other parents think they have cute babies, but mine is objectively the cutest.  Which is on objectively absurd thing to say.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Minimum Age for Libertarian Rights?
Reply #2 - Mar 5th, 2018 at 10:54am
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ahhell wrote on Mar 5th, 2018 at 10:27am:
Arbitrary ages are just a convenience, nobody thinks that folks suddenly become responsible at 16, 18, or 21, its just easier to say, "at this age most people will be capable of making these decisions."

Science(via functional MRI studies) says that our brains to function like an adults until some time around 25 years old for most people.  25 just isn't practical for most purposes. 


Psychology seems to back up the MRI studies but, that science is a lot less certain than neurology. 

Edit to add:

Regarding your own kids, other folks might disagree with your assesment.  You aren't the most unbiased observer of your own kids.  As I often say of mine, other parents think they have cute babies, but mine is objectively the cutest.  Which is on objectively absurd thing to say.


Well, sure.  I could also be just saying that when my kids are childish twenty-somethings still living in my basement. 

I'd probably favor placing 18 as the age to work, sign binding contracts, and other responsibility inducing rights.  I'd allow smoking at 18 just because banning it for a twenty year old is unenforceable.  Drinking I'd wait until 21 because 18 year olds are sure to give or sell alcohol to younger kids. 

As to voting, we'd have better government if the age were raised to 21, but not much better since so few college-aged people vote.  For getting married, I'd leave it at 16 with parent permission and 18 without.  Raising the age would just cause even more out of wedlock kids. 


  

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ahhell
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Re: Minimum Age for Libertarian Rights?
Reply #3 - Mar 5th, 2018 at 12:01pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Mar 5th, 2018 at 10:54am:
Well, sure.  I could also be just saying that when my kids are childish twenty-somethings still living in my basement. 

I'd probably favor placing 18 as the age to work, sign binding contracts, and other responsibility inducing rights.  I'd allow smoking at 18 just because banning it for a twenty year old is unenforceable.  Drinking I'd wait until 21 because 18 year olds are sure to give or sell alcohol to younger kids. 

As to voting, we'd have better government if the age were raised to 21, but not much better since so few college-aged people vote.  For getting married, I'd leave it at 16 with parent permission and 18 without.  Raising the age would just cause even more out of wedlock kids. 


Do you have a reason for those ages other than, its what you are used to?

Drinking age is especially odd as your reason for keeping it where it is true of both 18 year olds and 21 year olds and 30 year olds and......

You absolutely right about voting of course, you could probably lower it to 6 with out effecting things much.  Maybe not, 6 year olds are probably more likely to vote than 19 year olds. 

There are a number of US states that allow marriage even younger than 16 with parents permission, I find that quite gross actually.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Minimum Age for Libertarian Rights?
Reply #4 - Mar 5th, 2018 at 12:09pm
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ahhell wrote on Mar 5th, 2018 at 12:01pm:
Do you have a reason for those ages other than, its what you are used to?

Drinking age is especially odd as your reason for keeping it where it is true of both 18 year olds and 21 year olds and 30 year olds and......

You absolutely right about voting of course, you could probably lower it to 6 with out effecting things much.  Maybe not, 6 year olds are probably more likely to vote than 19 year olds. 

There are a number of US states that allow marriage even younger than 16 with parents permission, I find that quite gross actually.


I think you're both reflecting social responsibility in your choices of age limitations.

But is this serious talk? I don't think it's going to be acceptable to libertarians. Except perhaps messing with the voting age for partisan reasons.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Minimum Age for Libertarian Rights?
Reply #5 - Mar 5th, 2018 at 12:42pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Mar 5th, 2018 at 10:54am:
As to voting, we'd have better government if the age were raised to 21, but not much better since so few college-aged people vote.  

There are better ways to improve the electorate. Voter Proficiency Quiz - a simple multiple-choice quiz on the ballot itself. If the qestions are not answered correctly, the ballot is not counted.

Here's a sample question:

What are the 3 branches of government?

a)  Legislative, Judicial, and Financial
b)  Financial, Labor, and Entitlements
c)  Legislative, Executive, and Judicial
d)  Energy, Trade, and Foreign Affairs

Most 7th-graders could answer this, but I'd wager that many voters cannot.  We need some method of weeding out the bad votes.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Minimum Age for Libertarian Rights?
Reply #6 - Mar 5th, 2018 at 12:58pm
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SkyChief wrote on Mar 5th, 2018 at 12:42pm:
There are better ways to improve the electorate. Voter Proficiency Quiz - a simple multiple-choice quiz on the ballot itself. If the qestions are not answered correctly, the ballot is not counted.

Here's a sample question:

What are the 3 branches of government?

a)  Legislative, Judicial, and Financial
b)  Financial, Labor, and Entitlements
c)  Legislative, Executive, and Judicial
d)  Energy, Trade, and Foreign Affairs

Most 7th-graders could answer this, but I'd wager that many voters cannot.  We need some method of weeding out the bad votes.


Exactly! I set a trap for you and you willing walk right in.

You want to disqualify people from voting based on your own political priorities. Your quiz would sort out the unindoctrinated.

Then you really show your ignorance when you say that most 7th. graders could answer correctly but most voters wouldn't. Duuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhh!!

That's saying that most voters haven't attained 7th. grade education, which is batshit crazy pseudo-libertarian nonsense.

It's so batshit crazy that you should be disqualified for saying it!

And you think you could set the bar for allowing others to vote??
  
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Don_G
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Re: Minimum Age for Libertarian Rights?
Reply #7 - Mar 5th, 2018 at 1:17pm
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Jeezuz Chief, you do it every time. You set yourself up for a smackdown every day. And today's is just even more satisfying than yesterday's!

Talking about room temperature IQ's?

Doooohhhhhhh!
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Minimum Age for Libertarian Rights?
Reply #8 - Mar 5th, 2018 at 1:19pm
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Exactly! I set a trap for you and you willing walk right in.

You want to disqualify people from voting based on your own political priorities. Your quiz would sort out the unindoctrinated.
...And you think you could set the bar for allowing others to vote??

First, I was responding to Burns.  I didn't step in your delusional "trap".

Second, I want to weed out bad votes.   Not based on MY political priorities.  Based on the ineptitude of a significant percentage of American voters.  (And Non-American voters, too!)

Third, I have no ambition to "set the bar for allowing others to vote".  A bi-partisan voter-advocate committee would select the questions for the quiz.

The voters sample ballot would have all of the quiz questions included, so they are free to research the answers to the quiz before they go to the polls.  And by doing the research, they just became a more informed (and better) voter.   Cool

I knew that my Voter Proficiency Quiz would trigger an emotional protest from you.

Smiley
  
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Don_G
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Re: Minimum Age for Libertarian Rights?
Reply #9 - Mar 5th, 2018 at 1:29pm
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SkyChief wrote on Mar 5th, 2018 at 1:19pm:
First, I was responding to Burns.  I didn't step in your delusional "trap".

Second, I want to weed out bad votes.   Not based on MY political priorities.  Based on the ineptitude of a significant percentage of American voters.  (And Non-American voters, too!)

Third, I have no ambition to "set the bar for allowing others to vote".  A bi-partisan voter-advocate committee would select the questions for the quiz.

The voters sample ballot would have all of the quiz questions included, so they are free to research the answers to the quiz before they go to the polls.  And by doing the research, they just became a more informed (and better) voter.   Cool

I knew that my Voter Proficiency Quiz would trigger an emotional protest from you.

Smiley


Like I said: Then you really show your ignorance when you say that most 7th. graders could answer correctly but most voters wouldn't. Duuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhh!!

Yup, you make me so emotional!

You've been told that you need to think it through before you make up your stories. Now I'm telling you that you should think it through before you even open your cakehole.

(laughing man here)
  
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