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SkyChief
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Re: Minimum Age for Libertarian Rights?
Reply #10 - Mar 5th, 2018 at 1:45pm
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Like I said: Then you really show your ignorance when you say that most 7th. graders could answer correctly but most voters wouldn't. Duuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhh!!

Yup, you make me so emotional!

You've been told that you need to think it through before you make up your stories. Now I'm telling you that you should think it through before you even open your cakehole.

(laughing man here)

Oh dear.    I think it's time for your nap, Don_G.

  
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The Opposition
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Re: Minimum Age for Libertarian Rights?
Reply #11 - Mar 5th, 2018 at 1:59pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Mar 5th, 2018 at 9:42am:
I'm wondering what age being "grown up" should start.


How about never for some people and zero for others? Seems the most libertarian to me.

If you admit you can arbitrarily strip rights because someone isn't old enough, why not do it to some and not others?

We already have responsible children (formal operation stage starts at eleven) without rights, and irresponsible adult baby factories leeching off others and never losing any rights, so why not?

ahhell wrote on Mar 5th, 2018 at 10:27am:
Science(via functional MRI studies) says that our brains to function like an adults until some time around 25 years old for most people.


Yup. And when we raise the age to 25, MRIs will find people don't start thinking like adults until 30.

It takes a few years of not being treated like a child to stop being one.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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ahhell
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Re: Minimum Age for Libertarian Rights?
Reply #12 - Mar 5th, 2018 at 2:21pm
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The Opposition wrote on Mar 5th, 2018 at 1:59pm:
Yup. And when we raise the age to 25, MRIs will find people don't start thinking like adults until 30.

It takes a few years of not being treated like a child to stop being one.

This is probably true but I expect there is some lower and upper bound. 
I suspect there is an age at which nearly all people's brains function the manner of an adult regardless of how childishly they are allowed to behave  for however long. 

There are also some folk who likely never grow up.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Minimum Age for Libertarian Rights?
Reply #13 - Mar 5th, 2018 at 3:59pm
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The Opposition wrote on Mar 5th, 2018 at 1:59pm:
How about never for some people and zero for others? Seems the most libertarian to me.

If you admit you can arbitrarily strip rights because someone isn't old enough, why not do it to some and not others?

We already have responsible children (formal operation stage starts at eleven) without rights, and irresponsible adult baby factories leeching off others and never losing any rights, so why not?


Yup. And when we raise the age to 25, MRIs will find people don't start thinking like adults until 30.

It takes a few years of not being treated like a child to stop being one.


That last may be a very good point.  We probably will just have to accept that people will get rights before they can handle them because they don't learn how to handle them until they get them. 

So the real question becomes, "how long should we protect people from themselves?"  In that case I'd say 18 at the most but a case could be made for 16 or 17.


  

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Jeff
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Re: Minimum Age for Libertarian Rights?
Reply #14 - Mar 5th, 2018 at 6:27pm
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The Opposition wrote on Mar 5th, 2018 at 1:59pm:
It takes a few years of not being treated like a child to stop being one.
What it actually takes is a few years of acting like a responsible adult before people will start trusting you to be one.

As usual, you have it backwards.


  
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Jeff
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Re: Minimum Age for Libertarian Rights?
Reply #15 - Mar 5th, 2018 at 6:32pm
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ahhell wrote on Mar 5th, 2018 at 2:21pm:
This is probably true but I expect there is some lower and upper bound. 
I suspect there is an age at which nearly all people's brains function the manner of an adult regardless of how childishly they are allowed to behave  for however long. 

There are also some folk who likely never grow up.
What has made humans dominant on earth is our ability to learn. Learning does not just involve bookish things or intellectual skills, and one of the most important learning endeavors for human children is learning to be responsible and trustworthy and understanding why that is important. Without learning that, they will never be adults.

Learning changes your brain. Trying to learn lots of diverse things changes your brain in diverse ways, but if you don't learn responsibility, you will remain a child.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Minimum Age for Libertarian Rights?
Reply #16 - Mar 5th, 2018 at 10:37pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Mar 5th, 2018 at 3:59pm:
That last may be a very good point.  We probably will just have to accept that people will get rights before they can handle them because they don't learn how to handle them until they get them. 

So the real question becomes, "how long should we protect people from themselves?"  In that case I'd say 18 at the most but a case could be made for 16 or 17.


This is a prickly issue for me. As a supergenius who was more responsible than most 25-year-olds at four, and only about six orders of magnitude more responsible than my parents, what do you want me to say to this?

This issue has been discussed on this forum before, and I've put forth every fair solution. They've all been shat on with the greatest gusto.

You're undoubtedly right about me having a point about brain development, since during the most formative periods of human evolution, when brain size was actually increasing, people didn't generally live to 25. There would have been little to no evolutionary advantage from brain development that occurs after 25.

Therefore people are being artificially stifled.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Minimum Age for Libertarian Rights?
Reply #17 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 5:52am
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The Opposition wrote on Mar 5th, 2018 at 10:37pm:
You're undoubtedly right about me having a point about brain development, since during the most formative periods of human evolution, when brain size was actually increasing, people didn't generally live to 25. There would have been little to no evolutionary advantage from brain development that occurs after 25.

People that keep learning after age 25 keep changing their brains. That's not the same kind of development you're talking about, but there are definite advantages that accrue to people who keep learning.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Minimum Age for Libertarian Rights?
Reply #18 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 5:54am
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The Opposition wrote on Mar 5th, 2018 at 10:37pm:
Therefore people are being artificially stifled.
In many ways, many of today's children are being stifled by overly protective parents/schools/governments.
  
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