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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Justice, Southern Africa Style (Read 1629 times)
Tom Palven
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Justice, Southern Africa Style
Mar 6th, 2018 at 1:52am
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In l948 white South Africans enacted the separationist apartheid laws, which among other things included legislation supported by white labor unions that excluded blacks from many lines of work including such things as driving taxicabs.

In 1987, while Nelson Mandela was still in prison, South African Libertarian Party members Frances Kendall and Leon Louw published a book titled After Apartheid: The Solution for South Africa. They provided good reasons and methods for abolishing all segregationist apartheid laws, but their recommendations went largely unheeded as the South African secret police continued to plant false flags pitting Zulus, Xhosas, and other tribes against each other while murdering emerging leaders.
https://www.amazon.com/After-Apartheid- ... sth+africa

Now, according to this Australian news article, South Africa is preparing to follow in the steps of Rhodesia, once the bread basket of Africa, and now the basket case of Africa, by confiscating the land of white farmers, without compensation, and the wonder is that it took this long.
http://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/ ... 3576c4c0bc
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style
Reply #1 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 2:47am
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Tom, I'm honestly surprised you're not on the side of the land restoration. I expected you to say that it was never those South African farmers' land.

But if you're against the land restoration, so am I.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style
Reply #2 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 7:07am
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The Opposition wrote on Mar 6th, 2018 at 2:47am:
Tom, I'm honestly surprised you're not on the side of the land restoration. I expected you to say that it was never those South African farmers' land.

But if you're against the land restoration, so am I.
They are planning to confiscate the land by "due process" since their parliament voted to do it, and that means it's the will of the majority and must be good, right?

How could someone with your rule based philosophy possibly oppose the confiscation?

Calling it "restoration" is disingenuous. The people who might have owned it in the past are likely to be dead, so nothing can be restored to them.

"Restoration" only makes sense if it is "restoring" ownership to a group, in this case a racial group. The current government of S. Africa wants retribution based on race. They learned nothing from Apartheid and want to do it again, on behalf of the majority of "the people".

They are Communists. They seem incapable of learning from the mistakes of history.

Edit:Racial Group Think lives on in S. Africa...

https://latitude.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/15/in-south-africa-after-apartheid-co...
  
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Tom Palven
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style
Reply #3 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 10:39am
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I don't think that it necessarily had to be this way.

Just as communists were supporting MLK while the FBI was trying to discredit him, Russia was supporting the rebel African National Congress while the US government was maintaining ties to the white supremicist South African governemnt.

You had "capitalists" vs. "communists" and the only other alternative in the game were few dozen South African members of Libertarian International.

LI was created by Canadians Vince Miller and Bruce Evoy, and was closely associated with the US Libertarian Party. It later merged with the US-based Society for International Liberty and became ISIL, the International Society for International liberty and has since morphed into Liberty International. which is organized in over 80 countries. Fwiw, Wikipedia doesn't have the history quite right.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_International_(organization)

Anyway, with communist Russia sending arms and advisors to the ANC, and only a few dozen LI members advocating a free enterprise solution to the situation in South Africa, it's no wonder that the 26,000,000 black South Africans (versus 4 million whites) at the time, turned to communism.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style
Reply #4 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 10:50am
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Tom Palven wrote on Mar 6th, 2018 at 10:39am:
I don't think that it necessarily had to be this way.

Just as communists were supporting MLK while the FBI was trying to discredit him, Russia was supporting the rebel African National Congress while the US government was maintaining ties to the white supremicist South African governemnt.

You had "capitalists" vs. "communists" and the only other alternative in the game were few dozen South African members of Libertarian International.

LI was created by Canadians Vince Miller and Bruce Evoy, and was closely associated with the US Libertarian Party. It later merged with the US-based Society for International Liberty and became ISIL, the International Society for International liberty and has since morphed into Liberty International. which is organized in over 80 countries. Fwiw, Wikipedia doesn't have the history quite right.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_International_(organization)

Anyway, with communist Russia sending arms and advisors to the ANC, and only a few dozen LI members advocating a free enterprise solution to the situation in South Africa, it's no wonder that the 26,000,000 black South Africans (versus 4 million whites) at the time, turned to communism.
It's hard to find a lot of people anywhere advocating economic freedom when most have been taught to think of it as the crony "capitalism" described by Marx, and when most of the "capitalism" they see in the world is crony "capitalism".

In a different part of Africa, it's clear what can be expected from the ANC...

"The man expected to lead Zimbabwe after the dramatic toppling of longtime president Robert Mugabe returned from abroad on Wednesday, promising democracy but also warning the the ruling party would remain firmly in control."

-Washington Post, Nov. 22, 2017
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style
Reply #5 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 11:44am
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Jeff wrote on Mar 6th, 2018 at 7:07am:
Calling it "restoration" is disingenuous. The people who might have owned it in the past are likely to be dead, so nothing can be restored to them.

They could call it reparations instead of restoration.  There was a movement here in the US by the descendants of slaves to receive benefits on behalf of their deceased ancestors:

The United Nations' Working Group of Experts on People of African Descent, a body that reports to the international organization's High Commissioner on Human Rights, has declared that reparations ARE in order:

"The reparations could come in a variety of forms, according to the panel, including "a formal apology, health initiatives, educational opportunities ... psychological rehabilitation, technology transfer and financial support, and debt cancellation."


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/09/27/u-s-owes-black-peop...
  
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Don_G
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style
Reply #6 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 1:38pm
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Tom Palven wrote on Mar 6th, 2018 at 1:52am:
In l948 white South Africans enacted the separationist apartheid laws, which among other things included legislation supported by white labor unions that excluded blacks from many lines of work including such things as driving taxicabs.

In 1987, while Nelson Mandela was still in prison, South African Libertarian Party members Frances Kendall and Leon Louw published a book titled After Apartheid: The Solution for South Africa. They provided good reasons and methods for abolishing all segregationist apartheid laws, but their recommendations went largely unheeded as the South African secret police continued to plant false flags pitting Zulus, Xhosas, and other tribes against each other while murdering emerging leaders.
https://www.amazon.com/After-Apartheid- ... sth+africa

Now, according to this Australian news article, South Africa is preparing to follow in the steps of Rhodesia, once the bread basket of Africa, and now the basket case of Africa, by confiscating the land of white farmers, without compensation, and the wonder is that it took this long.
http://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/ ... 3576c4c0bc


Maybe the most important aspect of it is that it could lead to US meddling in S.Africa's affairs on the phony pretense of saving some people?

The biggest factor that will come into play when considering that is whether or not it's too late now. This would be in the same respect that it's likely too late for the US in Syria and pretty much settled that it's too late for the US to meddle in Iran.

South Africa was a member of the nuclear club and could be again very quickly.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style
Reply #7 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 2:34pm
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SkyChief wrote on Mar 6th, 2018 at 11:44am:
They could call it reparations instead of restoration.  There was a movement here in the US by the descendants of slaves to receive benefits on behalf of their deceased ancestors:

The United Nations' Working Group of Experts on People of African Descent, a body that reports to the international organization's High Commissioner on Human Rights, has declared that reparations ARE in order:

"The reparations could come in a variety of forms, according to the panel, including "a formal apology, health initiatives, educational opportunities ... psychological rehabilitation, technology transfer and financial support, and debt cancellation."


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/09/27/u-s-owes-black-peop...
They'll have problems when they come to descendants of African Americans who owned slaves in America and descendants of African Americans who weren't here at all until after slavery was abolished...

What about descendants of Africans who participated in capturing and selling other Africans in Africa who came here after slavery was abolished?

Let's just say the color of your skin and what your ancestors might have done or not done doesn't matter.

In fact, I think holding people responsible for the crimes of their ancestors is forbidden in the Constitution.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style
Reply #8 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 3:04pm
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Whatever. If it's wrong, it's wrong. No one's going to listen to me anyway so I'll just agree with everyone else.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style
Reply #9 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 3:35pm
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The Opposition wrote on Mar 6th, 2018 at 3:04pm:
Whatever. If it's wrong, it's wrong. No one's going to listen to me anyway so I'll just agree with everyone else.
We'll take that as a given from now on, so you no longer need to say anything... Lucky us! Sorry Embarrassed, I mean't lucky you.

Except are you agreeing with Donat or Red or me? Or the Chief or Ruby?

In case you haven't noticed, none of us all agree on anything other than the Donat isn't Canadian as he first claimed.

I'm going to take it that you agree totally with ahhell... Either that or thermie Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
  
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