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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Justice, Southern Africa Style (Read 1337 times)
The Opposition
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style
Reply #10 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 3:45pm
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Jeff wrote on Mar 6th, 2018 at 3:35pm:
We'll take that as a given from now on, so you no longer need to say anything... Lucky us! Sorry Embarrassed, I mean't lucky you.

Except are you agreeing with Donat or Red or me? Or the Chief or Ruby?

In case you haven't noticed, none of us all agree on anything other than the Donat isn't Canadian as he first claimed.

I'm going to take it that you agree totally with ahhell... Either that or thermie Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


The South African land restoration is wrong.

Tomorrow it might be racist to say this, but in that case, I'll just agree tomorrow that the land restoration is right.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style
Reply #11 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 4:22pm
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The Opposition wrote on Mar 6th, 2018 at 3:45pm:
The South African land restoration is wrong.

Tomorrow it might be racist to say this, but in that case, I'll just agree tomorrow that the land restoration is right.
Fine, we'll just put you down as a permanent "no opinion slacker" someone who just blows in the wind. Someone with no convictions, unwilling to stand for anything, and therefore subject of anyone and anything. Tsk tsk.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style
Reply #12 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 8:41pm
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No parcel of land was ever given to any private owner except by a government which controlled it by force.  There are no written records so we don't know whether the kingdoms founded by the first people of southern Africa granted private property rights over land.  We do know that later European government brought that wealth creation and control method with them.  They swept aside the people who were there first and gave land to colonists. 

Decades later, a new government swept that government aside.  No one has the moral high ground to say that the new government should not grant land as it sees fit.  The previous government did exactly that.

  

"Taxes are morally justified theft" - Jeff
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The Opposition
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style
Reply #13 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 9:48pm
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Jeff wrote on Mar 6th, 2018 at 4:22pm:
Fine, we'll just put you down as a permanent "no opinion slacker" someone who just blows in the wind. Someone with no convictions, unwilling to stand for anything, and therefore subject of anyone and anything. Tsk tsk.


I have plenty of convictions but you don't like them. If I say A, you'll say B. If I say B, you'll say A. You've been documented changing your opinions on a dime and flaming me no matter what I say.

The only way I can not lose is to just agree with you.

I'd like to ask you exactly when and under exactly what conditions stolen land becomes rightful property, but you'd just flame me more, nitpick my wording, and avoid the question.

So I think I'll just agree with you instead.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style
Reply #14 - Mar 7th, 2018 at 7:27am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Mar 6th, 2018 at 8:41pm:
No parcel of land was ever given to any private owner except by a government which controlled it by force.  There are no written records so we don't know whether the kingdoms founded by the first people of southern Africa granted private property rights over land.  We do know that later European government brought that wealth creation and control method with them.  They swept aside the people who were there first and gave land to colonists. 

Decades later, a new government swept that government aside.  No one has the moral high ground to say that the new government should not grant land as it sees fit.  The previous government did exactly that.

What is happening is that a government that respected and protected property rights has been replaced by a government that doesn't, a government that gives lip service to land being owned in "common" but actually claims the land for the government, which will control it to favor the government and it's cronies.

The moral high ground can be claimed by any government that respects and protects private property and equal rights under law.

Any moral government in S. Africa would apologize for (or condemn) what European colonists did generations ago, but see that the best solution to past injustice is to maintain and protect property rights and free the economy so any ambitious hard working people in S. Africa, whether 'black' 'colored' or 'white' have equal opportunities to buy and own land.

Instead, they will create another Zimbabwe or Venezuela and everyone will suffer, except the "socially responsible government" and it's cronies.


  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style
Reply #15 - Mar 7th, 2018 at 7:56am
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Jeff wrote on Mar 7th, 2018 at 7:27am:
What is happening is that a government that respected and protected property rights has been replaced by a government that doesn't, a government that gives lip service to land being owned in "common" but actually claims the land for the government, which will control it to favor the government and it's cronies.

The moral high ground can be claimed by any government that respects and protects private property and equal rights under law.

Any moral government in S. Africa would apologize for (or condemn) what European colonists did generations ago, but see that the best solution to past injustice is to maintain and protect property rights and free the economy so any ambitious hard working people in S. Africa, whether 'black' 'colored' or 'white' have equal opportunities to buy and own land.

Instead, they will create another Zimbabwe or Venezuela and everyone will suffer, except the "socially responsible government" and it's cronies.




Ok, now you have got to be kidding with that one.  The Apartheid government of South Africa respected property rights? 

What property rights did the overwhelming majority of South Africans who were black have before the current government came to power?


  

"Taxes are morally justified theft" - Jeff
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Don_G
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style
Reply #16 - Mar 7th, 2018 at 12:58pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Mar 7th, 2018 at 7:56am:
Ok, now you have got to be kidding with that one.  The Apartheid government of South Africa respected property rights? 

What property rights did the overwhelming majority of South Africans who were black have before the current government came to power?




Jeff is lonely and he just wants to keep on person on the hook.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style
Reply #17 - Mar 7th, 2018 at 10:32pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Mar 7th, 2018 at 7:56am:
Ok, now you have got to be kidding with that one.  The Apartheid government of South Africa respected property rights? 


The thing is, everyone does that once the property is where they want it to be.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Tom Palven
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style
Reply #18 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 5:03am
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Maybe the most important aspect of it is that it could lead to US meddling in S.Africa's affairs on the phony pretense of saving some people?

The biggest factor that will come into play when considering that is whether or not it's too late now. This would be in the same respect that it's likely too late for the US in Syria and pretty much settled that it's too late for the US to meddle in Iran.

South Africa was a member of the nuclear club and could be again very quickly.


I didn't know or at least didn't remember that South Africa gave up its nuclear weapons:
http://web.mit.edu/SSP/seminars/wed_archives01spring/albright.htm

But, it seems you are pretty optimistic in thinking that it is ever too late for the US to meddle in anything.  Embarrassed
  
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Don_G
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style
Reply #19 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 12:45pm
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Tom Palven wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 5:03am:
I didn't know or at least didn't remember that South Africa gave up its nuclear weapons:
http://web.mit.edu/SSP/seminars/wed_archives01spring/albright.htm

But, it seems you are pretty optimistic in thinking that it is ever too late for the US to meddle in anything.  Embarrassed


That's not what I think. The US will meddle where it can but it won't meddle directly with any nuclear powers militarily. The US is carefully measuring what it can do in Syria because of Russia's presence. Right now the US is mostly intent in selling it's side as humanitarian, when it's clearly not.

My guess is that Iran is off the table for US conquest but many more will die because of US clients doing the job with small pinpricks that will kill a lot of Iranians.

The situation is in the development stages and will be until all vulnerable countries align with their side. It will be either with Nato or the other side which we could refer to as the Brics for now.
  
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