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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Justice, Southern Africa Style (Read 1149 times)
Jeff
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style
Reply #20 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 6:10pm
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The Opposition wrote on Mar 7th, 2018 at 10:32pm:
The thing is, everyone does that once the property is where they want it to be.
No. You misunderstand as usual.

Having a government that respects and protects property rights is an improvement over one that doesn't.

It's best to have a government that respects everyone's property (and other) rights equally, but it's obviously worse for everyone to have a government that doesn't respect rights at all.
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style
Reply #21 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 8:00pm
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The Opposition wrote on Mar 7th, 2018 at 10:32pm:
Quote:
The thing is, everyone does that once the property is where they want it to be.


Jeff wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 6:10pm:
No. You misunderstand as usual.

Having a government that respects and protects property rights is an improvement over one that doesn't.

It's best to have a government that respects everyone's property (and other) rights equally, but it's obviously worse for everyone to have a government that doesn't respect rights at all.


Actually, Opposition was spot on.  The British colonial government fully respected land property rights.  As soon as they took the land from the Powhatan Confederation and redistributed it to white folks.  The Europeans in southern Africa fully respected the rights of landowners after they redistributed it to whites.   You want the Africans in Africa to fully respect those same right even though they only became rights in a system that regarded them as animals.


  

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Jeff
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style
Reply #22 - Mar 10th, 2018 at 7:15am
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SnarkySack wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 8:00pm:
The Opposition wrote on Mar 7th, 2018 at 10:32pm:


Actually, Opposition was spot on.  The British colonial government fully respected land property rights.  As soon as they took the land from the Powhatan Confederation and redistributed it to white folks.  The Europeans in southern Africa fully respected the rights of landowners after they redistributed it to whites.   You want the Africans in Africa to fully respect those same right even though they only became rights in a system that regarded them as animals.


I want all governments to respect and protect property rights simply because the alternative is so destructive.

Past injustices in S.Africa and elsewhere will not be magically rectified by destroying property rights in favor of a system that claims common ownership of land or by "returning" land to the ancestors of people who might have once owned it.
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style
Reply #23 - Mar 10th, 2018 at 8:38am
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Jeff wrote on Mar 10th, 2018 at 7:15am:
I want all governments to respect and protect property rights simply because the alternative is so destructive.

Past injustices in S.Africa and elsewhere will not be magically rectified by destroying property rights in favor of a system that claims common ownership of land or by "returning" land to the ancestors of people who might have once owned it.


No, those past wrongs will never be rectified.  But that doesn't mean that the new government must continue to enforce those wrongs by pretending that the descendants of those who stole the land have a legitimate claim to own it today.

I have the distinct impression that you don't believe the current government of South Africa is legitimate.


  

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Jeff
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style
Reply #24 - Mar 10th, 2018 at 10:40am
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SnarkySack wrote on Mar 10th, 2018 at 8:38am:
No, those past wrongs will never be rectified.  But that doesn't mean that the new government must continue to enforce those wrongs by pretending that the descendants of those who stole the land have a legitimate claim to own it today.

I have the distinct impression that you don't believe the current government of South Africa is legitimate.


It's hard to see a government dominated by a communist party that just voted to redistribute land based on race as legitimate.

I don't see it as any more legitimate than the single party dominated government that created apartheid.

Edit:The Republic of South Africa was created out of tribal warfare. The Afrikaners won the tribal war and distributed land to their own people. That wasn't any different that what was going on in Africa before the Europeans came.

Lots of black Africans migrated into South Africa after the Afrikaners controlled the country because the European style system of government, despite being racist, operated on a system of law that protected property rights and allowed people to become prosperous. The black Africans that moved into South Africa after the Afrikaners made it prosperous have no prior claim at all to the land. They didn't live there before the white Africans did.

The ANC will turn South Africa into another Zimbabwe or Venezuela in the name of "justice", but what they are doing is not any more just than what the Afrikaners did.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style
Reply #25 - Mar 10th, 2018 at 4:55pm
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Jeff wrote on Mar 10th, 2018 at 10:40am:
It's hard to see a government dominated by a communist party that just voted to redistribute land based on race as legitimate.

I don't see it as any more legitimate than the single party dominated government that created apartheid.

Edit:The Republic of South Africa was created out of tribal warfare. The Afrikaners won the tribal war and distributed land to their own people. That wasn't any different that what was going on in Africa before the Europeans came.

Lots of black Africans migrated into South Africa after the Afrikaners controlled the country because the European style system of government, despite being racist, operated on a system of law that protected property rights and allowed people to become prosperous. The black Africans that moved into South Africa after the Afrikaners made it prosperous have no prior claim at all to the land. They didn't live there before the white Africans did.

The ANC will turn South Africa into another Zimbabwe or Venezuela in the name of "justice", but what they are doing is not any more just than what the Afrikaners did.

What does the ANC plan for the 'coloreds'? What they own is what they worked for and bought. They never won it in a tribal war. They didn't 'steal' property from the black tribes or the English...

But because the 'colored' aren't 'black', the black communist ANC will confiscate their property too, also in the name of "justice".

Edit: The ANC has a National Socialist philosophy and racist fundamentals. That's a bad combination. It has never worked out well.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style
Reply #26 - Mar 10th, 2018 at 5:09pm
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Jeff wrote on Mar 10th, 2018 at 10:40am:
The black Africans that moved into South Africa after the Afrikaners made it prosperous have no prior claim at all to the land. They didn't live there before the white Africans did.


I agree with this somewhat. I agree that neither of these populations has title.

But, like it or not, people are aware of the race they belong to. It is very reasonable to say that the original owners of the land, who did have title, would have preferred it in black hands rather than in white hands.

It's not assuming racism on their part. It's just a fact. People would generally rather will their property to their children, cousins, distant relatives, extremely distant relatives, rather than the strangers who stole their land and had no business on that continent in the first place. People are also aware of the species they belong to and it's not racist to say they'd probably prefer to give the land to white humans, than, let's lay, ID4 aliens.

I actually agree that the Afrikaners are making the land more productive. I disagree that this should be any part of determining rightful ownership. Just because I can use something in a superior way, to the betterment of many, and the greater good, does not mean I can snatch it from its rightful owner.

I've been thinking about this for a while, and I have come to the conclusion that if the Afrikaners did not know their land was originally stolen, they would be owed something for the labour they invested in the land.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style
Reply #27 - Mar 10th, 2018 at 5:31pm
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The Opposition wrote on Mar 10th, 2018 at 5:09pm:
I agree with this somewhat. I agree that neither of these populations has title.

We are not at all in agreement asshole.

Lots of South African 'coloreds' hold title to real property (property they worked hard to acquire) as do lots of people of other "races".

The black communist ANC proposes most of  these titles to be invalid based on skin color.

No civilized person is in favor. Its a Communist plan.

Argue for it if you want to. Start with  "ANC rule will be good because..."

  
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SnarkySack
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style
Reply #28 - Mar 10th, 2018 at 5:43pm
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Jeff wrote on Mar 10th, 2018 at 10:40am:
It's hard to see a government dominated by a communist party that just voted to redistribute land based on race as legitimate.


So no government that wants to redistribute wealth can ever be legitimate?  Including that of the United States?

Or so you consider the South African Government to have a whole different complexion from the U.S?

Quote:
I don't see it as any more legitimate than the single party dominated government that created apartheid.

Edit:The Republic of South Africa was created out of tribal warfare. The Afrikaners won the tribal war and distributed land to their own people. That wasn't any different that what was going on in Africa before the Europeans came.

Lots of black Africans migrated into South Africa after the Afrikaners controlled the country because the European style system of government, despite being racist, operated on a system of law that protected property rights and allowed people to become prosperous. The black Africans that moved into South Africa after the Afrikaners made it prosperous have no prior claim at all to the land. They didn't live there before the white Africans did.

The ANC will turn South Africa into another Zimbabwe or Venezuela in the name of "justice", but what they are doing is not any more just than what the Afrikaners did.


What kind of government do you imagine gave all the land to the Europeans?  A local representative republic?


  

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Jeff
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style
Reply #29 - Mar 10th, 2018 at 5:51pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Mar 10th, 2018 at 5:43pm:
So no government that wants to redistribute wealth can ever be legitimate?
Argue for it if you think it is right.

I will continue to maintain that it wrong. Evil and destructive.

Try to convince me it is good.

Give it a shot anyway. Coward.
  
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