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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Justice, Southern Africa Style (Read 1151 times)
Jeff
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style
Reply #30 - Mar 10th, 2018 at 6:25pm
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Jeff wrote on Mar 10th, 2018 at 5:51pm:
Argue for it if you think it is right.

I will continue to maintain that it wrong. Evil and destructive.

Try to convince me it is good.

Give it a shot anyway. Coward.
Continue if it pleases you. Otherwise, shut up.
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style
Reply #31 - Mar 10th, 2018 at 8:51pm
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SnarkySack wrote Today at 5:43pm:
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So no government that wants to redistribute wealth can ever be legitimate?


Jeff wrote on Mar 10th, 2018 at 5:51pm:
Argue for it if you think it is right.

I will continue to maintain that it wrong. Evil and destructive.

Try to convince me it is good.

Give it a shot anyway. Coward.


Government redistribution of wealth? No, it is I who believe that it is wrong evil and destructive for any government to do.  You seem to exempt the U.S. government and the Apartheid government of South Africa so your outrage is mighty selective.

My point is that if redistributing wealth renders a government illegitimate, there has never been a legitimate government on earth.




  

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Jeff
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style
Reply #32 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 8:14am
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SnarkySack wrote on Mar 10th, 2018 at 8:51pm:
SnarkySack wrote Today at 5:43pm:


Government redistribution of wealth? No, it is I who believe that it is wrong evil and destructive for any government to do.  You seem to exempt the U.S. government and the Apartheid government of South Africa so your outrage is mighty selective.

My point is that if redistributing wealth renders a government illegitimate, there has never been a legitimate government on earth.




Here's one thing I said-

"It's hard to see a government dominated by a communist party that just voted to redistribute land based on race as legitimate.

I don't see it as any more legitimate than the single party dominated government that created apartheid."

As you can see, I didn't exempt the racist government of South Africa (The one that created apartheid that is).

As to the U.S. goverenment since it started redistributing wealth, I constantly say it is operating outside the law when it does those sorts of things.

The government created by the U.S. Constitution did not start redistributing wealth until "progressives" interpreted the Constitution to make the commerce and general welfare clauses grants of general power, which they are not, but the U.S. government until the time of FDR and the New Deal did not redistribute wealth and was a legitimate government.
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style
Reply #33 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 10:55am
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Jeff wrote on Mar 11th, 2018 at 8:14am:
Here's one thing I said-

"It's hard to see a government dominated by a communist party that just voted to redistribute land based on race as legitimate.

I don't see it as any more legitimate than the single party dominated government that created apartheid."

As you can see, I didn't exempt the racist government of South Africa (The one that created apartheid that is).

As to the U.S. goverenment since it started redistributing wealth, I constantly say it is operating outside the law when it does those sorts of things.

The government created by the U.S. Constitution did not start redistributing wealth until "progressives" interpreted the Constitution to make the commerce and general welfare clauses grants of general power, which they are not, but the U.S. government until the time of FDR and the New Deal did not redistribute wealth and was a legitimate government.


Our federal government's redistribution of wealth did not begin with FDR, it began with George Washington.  The excise tax on whiskey was intended to pay the debts of all the states, yet the tax was unfairly applied almost exclusively to farmers and producers in the southern and western states. 
  

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Jeff
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style
Reply #34 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 11:46am
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SnarkySack wrote on Mar 11th, 2018 at 10:55am:
Our federal government's redistribution of wealth did not begin with FDR, it began with George Washington.  The excise tax on whiskey was intended to pay the debts of all the states, yet the tax was unfairly applied almost exclusively to farmers and producers in the southern and western states. 
That's not the redistribution of wealth.

The tax on whiskey applied to anyone who produced whiskey and it was enacted by Congress. It fell most heavily on those who produced the most whiskey and was perceived as unfair because the farmers who produced lots of whiskey did so because they had no means of transporting their grain to market and not enough money in circulation where they lived to satisfy the needs of their growing economies.

It was not intended to redistribute income, nor did it. It was an excise tax that should have been uniformly applied, and was, but not in the way that I understand uniformity to have been intended to work and it set a bad precedent that continues to this day, where one product is selected for taxation and the tax applied uniformly to that product. To be uniform, an excise tax should apply to the sale of all products at the same rate.

Congress no doubt picked whiskey to tax because they sought not only to raise revenue but to make whiskey more expensive. It was a sin tax, not intended to punish farmers who grew grain but to discourage drinkers of alcohol.

Anyway, taxes levied to pay the debts of government are not redistributive (although they may be unfair because of not being uniform). Taxes levied to subsidize GE or Boeing or individuals who didn't loan money to the government are redistributive.

The New Deal started the redistribution of wealth in America.
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style
Reply #35 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 12:46pm
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Jeff wrote on Mar 11th, 2018 at 11:46am:
That's not the redistribution of wealth.

The tax on whiskey applied to anyone who produced whiskey and it was enacted by Congress. It fell most heavily on those who produced the most whiskey
Actually, it did not.  The tax could be paid per gallon or as a flat fee.  The larger producers could afford the flat fee and so paid far less per gallon than the small producers.

Quote:
and was perceived as unfair because the farmers who produced lots of whiskey did so because they had no means of transporting their grain to market and not enough money in circulation where they lived to satisfy the needs of their growing economies.
It wasn't just perceived as unfair, it was unfair. 

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It was not intended to redistribute income, nor did it.


Of course it did.  By reducing the debt of all states with a tax that was applied more to some states than to others. 

Quote:
It was an excise tax that should have been uniformly applied, and was, but not in the way that I understand uniformity to have been intended to work and it set a bad precedent that continues to this day, where one product is selected for taxation and the tax applied uniformly to that product. To be uniform, an excise tax should apply to the sale of all products at the same rate.


Obviously, the whiskey tax did not meet that standard.

Quote:
Congress no doubt picked whiskey to tax because they sought not only to raise revenue but to make whiskey more expensive. It was a sin tax, not intended to punish farmers who grew grain but to discourage drinkers of alcohol.


I doubt that very seriously, but if you're right, that makes it worse, not better.  Whiskey was used as money in places too remote for much currency to circulate.  Since whiskey was used to pay wages, a tax on it amounted to an income tax as well.

Quote:
Anyway, taxes levied to pay the debts of government are not redistributive (although they may be unfair because of not being uniform). Taxes levied to subsidize GE or Boeing or individuals who didn't loan money to the government are redistributive.

The New Deal started the redistribution of wealth in America.


Nope.

  

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Jeff
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style
Reply #36 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 3:38pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Mar 11th, 2018 at 12:46pm:
Actually, it did not.  The tax could be paid per gallon or as a flat fee.  The larger producers could afford the flat fee and so paid far less per gallon than the small producers.

It wasn't just perceived as unfair, it was unfair. 


Of course it did.  By reducing the debt of all states with a tax that was applied more to some states than to others. 


Obviously, the whiskey tax did not meet that standard.


I doubt that very seriously, but if you're right, that makes it worse, not better.  Whiskey was used as money in places too remote for much currency to circulate.  Since whiskey was used to pay wages, a tax on it amounted to an income tax as well.


Nope.


So it was an unconstitutionally levied tax.

That doesn't make it redistribution of wealth without a long stretch.

Taxing some whiskey producers (not states) more than others to relieve the war debts of some states (who had by the way borrowed more money to further the Revolutionary War effort) more than others doesn't seem to me comparable at all to sending individuals and corporations checks drawn on the treasury.

Yes, the whiskey tax was poorly conceived and unfairly applied, but it's intention was to aid state governments in recovering from debts they incurred toward winning our Independence. It's purpose was to keep state governments viable so the new Union might survive to the benefit of everyone.

The beginning of direct transfer payments to individuals and corporations began with the New Deal.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style
Reply #37 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 5:11pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Mar 10th, 2018 at 5:43pm:
What kind of government do you imagine gave all the land to the Europeans?  A local representative republic?


This was never addressed.

It was never addressed that if the current South African government is illegitimate based on wealth redistribution, so was the old one.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style
Reply #38 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 5:35pm
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The Opposition wrote on Mar 11th, 2018 at 5:11pm:
This was never addressed.

It was never addressed that if the current South African government is illegitimate based on wealth redistribution, so was the old one.
I addressed the issue many times. No government has any legitimate power to redistribute wealth, and when governments usurp that power, they first make sure they will benefit, then they try to keep their cronies highly profitable so the cronies will support them.

In the specific instance of the Republic of South Africa, it wasn't so much that they redistributed wealth by taxing and giving subsidies as it was that they prohibited people with different colored skin from participating on an equal basis. Sure, there were crony deals, but they protected basic property rights for everyone, at least on paper.

The ANC wants the government (them) to own everything in the name of the people. Ho hum, Ha ha.

What does the ANC plan to do with the property of "coloreds"?

That's not been addressed either.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Justice, Southern Africa Style
Reply #39 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 6:29pm
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Jeff wrote on Mar 11th, 2018 at 5:35pm:
I addressed the issue many times. No government has any legitimate power to redistribute wealth, and when governments usurp that power, they first make sure they will benefit, then they try to keep their cronies highly profitable so the cronies will support them.

In the specific instance of the Republic of South Africa, it wasn't so much that they redistributed wealth by taxing and giving subsidies as it was that they prohibited people with different colored skin from participating on an equal basis. Sure, there were crony deals, but they protected basic property rights for everyone, at least on paper.

The ANC wants the government (them) to own everything in the name of the people. Ho hum, Ha ha.

What does the ANC plan to do with the property of "coloreds"?

That's not been addressed either.
Lizard, you supergenius intellectual coward, how will you avoid answering this time?

Diversion? Redefinition of well known common words?

Maybe you don't know what the ANC has planned for "coloreds"?

I would think it would be easy for you to find out... Please tell us when you do. Thanks.
  
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