Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › The Misunderstandings of 'Free Trade'
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 9 Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Misunderstandings of 'Free Trade' (Read 1637 times)
Don_G
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 10061
Location: British Columbia
Joined: May 8th, 2017
Re: The Misunderstandings of 'Free Trade'
Reply #10 - Mar 8th, 2018 at 12:45pm
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Mar 7th, 2018 at 3:20pm:
What you're saying is that a dollar is better in Vietnam than it is in America, and that only because of this can the Vietnamese labour work for less. They want our currency instead of their own.

I think the truth is closer to the American worker just being spoilt, lazy, stupid, and inefficient by nature. Americans should lose all our jobs, because we can't compete.

We can't compete in labour, science, or technology. The problem is not the banks, but the people.

It's easy to blame others for one's own problems.

Eliminate the minimum wage. Americans aren't worth a penny, let alone $10 an hour. Let Americans work for what the value of their labour commands.


You're completely lost with this topic aren't you. Is this a category that your big brain has no room for right now?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 6577
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: The Misunderstandings of 'Free Trade'
Reply #11 - Mar 8th, 2018 at 3:16pm
Print Post  
Don_G wrote on Mar 8th, 2018 at 12:45pm:
You're completely lost with this topic aren't you. Is this a category that your big brain has no room for right now?


90% of what I said was agreeing with you, and you just slammed your own positions because I said the solution was to remove minimum wage.
  

Making Sci-Fi great again since 2063.

Not taking Jeff seriously until he admits this is animal abuse (which he says should be illegal): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE-IT7_CaE4
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BobK71
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 571
Joined: Jun 12th, 2015
Re: The Misunderstandings of 'Free Trade'
Reply #12 - Mar 8th, 2018 at 4:26pm
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Mar 7th, 2018 at 3:20pm:
What you're saying is that a dollar is better in Vietnam than it is in America, and that only because of this can the Vietnamese labour work for less. They want our currency instead of their own.


Yes, that's another angle to look at the same thing.  But, again, one has to ask why.  The reason is that their central bank buys dollars with newly printed local currency, thus making their country 'want our currency instead of their own.'

If markets were left alone, the forex markets would ensure the dollar would lose ground until trade was balanced.  (Vietnamese goods would become more and more expensive in America, from currency appreciation, until trade was balanced.)

The Opposition wrote on Mar 7th, 2018 at 3:20pm:
I think the truth is closer to the American worker just being spoilt, lazy, stupid, and inefficient by nature. Americans should lose all our jobs, because we can't compete.

We can't compete in labour, science, or technology. The problem is not the banks, but the people.

It's easy to blame others for one's own problems.


A century of unearned wealth for Americans, based on the imperial and financial power of the US, was probably what achieved these lofty character traits.

The bank vs. people thing can be looked at many ways.

The Opposition wrote on Mar 7th, 2018 at 3:20pm:
Eliminate the minimum wage. Americans aren't worth a penny, let alone $10 an hour. Let Americans work for what the value of their labour commands.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BobK71
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 571
Joined: Jun 12th, 2015
Re: The Misunderstandings of 'Free Trade'
Reply #13 - Mar 8th, 2018 at 4:37pm
Print Post  
Tom Palven wrote on Mar 8th, 2018 at 8:46am:
The implementation of Adam Smith's views on free trade expressed in his book The Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations, 1776, is credited by many with advancing England's industrial revolution.

In 1850 British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli proclaimed that "protection is not only dead, but damned."

But not in Donald Trump's world.

The following article describes part of the can of worms that Trump's tariffs will open:
https://www.ericpetersautos.com/2018/03/06/trumps-tariff-turducken/


Oh, man, don't even bring up the British.

After the founding of the Bank of England in 1692 (the point at which the financial and political elites began working in earnest to blow the British national bubble,) the British establishment closed off foreign competition to nurture domestic industry.  By the the time British industry had grown strong, the ideology suddenly changed to favor free trade.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BobK71
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 571
Joined: Jun 12th, 2015
Re: The Misunderstandings of 'Free Trade'
Reply #14 - Mar 8th, 2018 at 4:57pm
Print Post  
Don_G wrote on Mar 7th, 2018 at 12:49pm:
A strange way of saying that goods made in the Asian countries are up to US standards but cheaper Bob.

Maybe a simpler and more easily understood way of saying it would be that the US can't compete with it's expensive labour and Trump fooled workers into thinking he could do something about it.

Did I miss any critical points Bob? I think I got your main point?


Let me give this another try...

What Trump says or does is really not important in the big scheme of things.

I agree that US workers can't compete on price of labor.  But one has to ask why.  The OP lists the major issues in this regard.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Don_G
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 10061
Location: British Columbia
Joined: May 8th, 2017
Re: The Misunderstandings of 'Free Trade'
Reply #15 - Mar 8th, 2018 at 6:31pm
Print Post  
BobK71 wrote on Mar 8th, 2018 at 4:57pm:
Let me give this another try...

What Trump says or does is really not important in the big scheme of things.

I agree that US workers can't compete on price of labor.  But one has to ask why.  The OP lists the major issues in this regard.


I would say they could compete but they don't want to have to. They would rather earn a fair working wage.

Some US companies can't afford to pay a fair wage and so they will have to resort to cheap immigrant labour or be unviable and fail. Some will continue t be able to pay a fair wage indefinitely. Some, if not companies that have to satisfy shareholder demands, will cut their profit to make a decent living while paying their workers a fair wage.

One factor that will dictate how ordinary people will make out will be the state's ability to pay the unemployed, or the state's willingness to pay the unemployed. The money will come out of the pockets of the wealthy with the ability to pay.

I think the question is, how much income inequality a people will put up with before taking action for themselves.

In the big scheme of things, Trump will have to sell poverty to the people. If they refuse to buy into it, Trump will be taken down.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 6577
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: The Misunderstandings of 'Free Trade'
Reply #16 - Mar 8th, 2018 at 10:57pm
Print Post  
BobK71 wrote on Mar 8th, 2018 at 4:26pm:
If markets were left alone, the forex markets would ensure the dollar would lose ground until trade was balanced.  (Vietnamese goods would become more and more expensive in America, from currency appreciation, until trade was balanced.)


Could you take me through this process? I'd like to know more about it.

BobK71 wrote on Mar 8th, 2018 at 4:26pm:
A century of unearned wealth for Americans, based on the imperial and financial power of the US, was probably what achieved these lofty character traits.


I'm concerned about the occurrence of potential deliberate dysgenics. The truth about the American worker is that he needs to starve. His labour simply isn't worth enough to sustain him.

So what do we do about this? Let's say the American government intentionally did this to the American people. It's not just unearned wealth, they used welfare to subsidise babies from those whose labour was worth the least.

As a population, our fate is to be entirely displaced. If the government (just to throw out an admittedly ridiculous hypothesis) took a few billion dollars from Mexico to do this and replace us with their people who would then give the country to Mexico, would we still have to accept starvation on the free market or would we be morally justified in demanding that we somehow be allowed to continue to exist?
  

Making Sci-Fi great again since 2063.

Not taking Jeff seriously until he admits this is animal abuse (which he says should be illegal): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE-IT7_CaE4
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Tom Palven
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 1783
Location: North America
Joined: Sep 27th, 2011
Re: The Misunderstandings of 'Free Trade'
Reply #17 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 4:26am
Print Post  
BobK71 wrote on Mar 8th, 2018 at 4:37pm:
Oh, man, don't even bring up the British.

After the founding of the Bank of England in 1692 (the point at which the financial and political elites began working in earnest to blow the British national bubble,) the British establishment closed off foreign competition to nurture domestic industry.  By the the time British industry had grown strong, the ideology suddenly changed to favor free trade.


I agree with your OP, including the last sentence, and also  agree that free trade is a win-win proposition, yet in this post you imply that England benefited from restricting trade for at least a while.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BobK71
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 571
Joined: Jun 12th, 2015
Re: The Misunderstandings of 'Free Trade'
Reply #18 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 8:44am
Print Post  
Don_G wrote on Mar 8th, 2018 at 6:31pm:
I would say they could compete but they don't want to have to. They would rather earn a fair working wage.

They would be better able to compete if the dollar went down.  A distorted exchange rate changes everything, because every price is based on the price of money.
Don_G wrote on Mar 8th, 2018 at 6:31pm:
Some US companies can't afford to pay a fair wage and so they will have to resort to cheap immigrant labour or be unviable and fail. Some will continue t be able to pay a fair wage indefinitely. Some, if not companies that have to satisfy shareholder demands, will cut their profit to make a decent living while paying their workers a fair wage.

One factor that will dictate how ordinary people will make out will be the state's ability to pay the unemployed, or the state's willingness to pay the unemployed. The money will come out of the pockets of the wealthy with the ability to pay.


The way to fix a problem due to market-fixing is to unfix the market.  (That is, at least in the long view -- an immediate collapse of the dollar would be very painful.)  Government or corporate subsidies would move the problem elsewhere but wouldn't fix it.  If we increase benefits, not only do we take from taxpayers, we also decrease the incentives to work.

Don_G wrote on Mar 8th, 2018 at 6:31pm:
I think the question is, how much income inequality a people will put up with before taking action for themselves.

This is currently one of the Achilles Heels of the establishment.  This is one of the side effects of their system they can't afford to ignore.  (Syrians getting killed is different -- that can be ignored.)

Don_G wrote on Mar 8th, 2018 at 6:31pm:
In the big scheme of things, Trump will have to sell poverty to the people. If they refuse to buy into it, Trump will be taken down.


They'll never accept poverty.  They'll destroy the system just to make their grievances known, if they have to.  If the election of Trump shows anything, it shows this, and that the days are numbered when the establishment can use the news media to influence public opinion.  People will refuse to believe the media.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Don_G
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 10061
Location: British Columbia
Joined: May 8th, 2017
Re: The Misunderstandings of 'Free Trade'
Reply #19 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 12:32pm
Print Post  
BobK71 wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 8:44am:
They would be better able to compete if the dollar went down.  A distorted exchange rate changes everything, because every price is based on the price of money.

The way to fix a problem due to market-fixing is to unfix the market.  (That is, at least in the long view -- an immediate collapse of the dollar would be very painful.)  Government or corporate subsidies would move the problem elsewhere but wouldn't fix it.  If we increase benefits, not only do we take from taxpayers, we also decrease the incentives to work.

This is currently one of the Achilles Heels of the establishment.  This is one of the side effects of their system they can't afford to ignore.  (Syrians getting killed is different -- that can be ignored.)


They'll never accept poverty.  They'll destroy the system just to make their grievances known, if they have to.  If the election of Trump shows anything, it shows this, and that the days are numbered when the establishment can use the news media to influence public opinion.  People will refuse to believe the media. 


They are already accepting poverty and might accept even more before they come to understand that they've been snookered by the American way nonsense.

I think blaming the media is the wrong approach. The media reports the news. The media is fed the propaganda from somebody and somewhere.

You seem to be ruling out change. I think that's common to libertarians who are just as propagandized and unable to accept change to the left.

Trump and Bernie promised change toward more leftist thinking but Trump was lying. How Trump did that would make a good discussion. But libertarians still don't want to accept that they have been snookered. In fact, they're becoming more hooked into being Trump supporters every day!

The lives of Americans don't have to be improved to cause them to support a politician. They only have to 'think' their lives are going to be improved.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 9
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › The Misunderstandings of 'Free Trade'
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy