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BobK71
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Re: The Misunderstandings of 'Free Trade'
Reply #60 - Apr 24th, 2018 at 12:28pm
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Billie wrote on Apr 3rd, 2018 at 7:21pm:
Just for a thought experiment, assume most people are aware of how fiat money and Fed control of the financial system is screwing them...

How would that be the "real cure"?

Knowing you have contracted the Plague won't cure you.

Some action is required to implement a cure isn't it?


When the public are aware, change on the ground will take care of itself.

One example would be a constitutional amendment that says public institutions shall do nothing that leverages the trust in their promises to affect the value of money or any financial asset.

Practically speaking though, a poison pill might be more effective, such as a requirement that government officials must *break* all promises of a financial nature.  Since promises are broken by design of today's system (just in a slow and hidden fashion,) we might as well make it explicit, so no one will be hurt by trusting them.  Collecting physical gold in payment from the government will never get you hurt.

There might still be bubbles, but hopefully nowhere near what we have today.
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: The Misunderstandings of 'Free Trade'
Reply #61 - Apr 24th, 2018 at 12:36pm
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BobK71 wrote on Apr 24th, 2018 at 12:28pm:
When the public are aware, change on the ground will take care of itself.

One example would be a constitutional amendment that says public institutions shall do nothing that leverages the trust in their promises to affect the value of money or any financial asset.

Practically speaking though, a poison pill might be more effective, such as a requirement that government officials must *break* all promises of a financial nature.  Since promises are broken by design of today's system (just in a slow and hidden fashion,) we might as well make it explicit, so no one will be hurt by trusting them.  Collecting physical gold in payment from the government will never get you hurt.

There might still be bubbles, but hopefully nowhere near what we have today.


I'm afraid Billie is right on this one.  Too many people are  living fairly comfortably under our current system of using fake money.   For a true libertarian republic to come about that uses real money we would either have to have a catastrophic economic failure or some kind of breakaway republic that starts from scratch.  The after-failure scenario has a greater chance of succeeding because people would  remember - for a while - how bad it got when we used fake money.

  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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Don_G
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Re: The Misunderstandings of 'Free Trade'
Reply #62 - Apr 24th, 2018 at 12:40pm
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BobK71 wrote on Apr 24th, 2018 at 12:28pm:
When the public are aware, change on the ground will take care of itself.

One example would be a constitutional amendment that says public institutions shall do nothing that leverages the trust in their promises to affect the value of money or any financial asset.

Practically speaking though, a poison pill might be more effective, such as a requirement that government officials must *break* all promises of a financial nature.  Since promises are broken by design of today's system (just in a slow and hidden fashion,) we might as well make it explicit, so no one will be hurt by trusting them.  Collecting physical gold in payment from the government will never get you hurt.

There might still be bubbles, but hopefully nowhere near what we have today.


Your long suit is always reasoning Bob but you're always short suited on libertarian principles to apply to the problems.

Having said that, I'm not suggesting that possible solutions shouldn't be discussed on a libertarian forum. Just that no solutions are forthcoming from any libertarian that can't be said to be otherwise mainstream.

If there are any rational ideas or solutions, they can't be said to be strictly libertarian. Libertarianism can't be applied to a large country. I doubt it could even be applied to a small town.

It causes me to wonder what you're doing here? Can you explain?
  
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Re: The Misunderstandings of 'Free Trade'
Reply #63 - Apr 24th, 2018 at 12:44pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Apr 24th, 2018 at 12:36pm:
The after-failure scenario has a greater chance of succeeding because people would  remember - for a while - how bad it got when we used fake money.

The government will never allow non-fiat currency.  They need to be able to debase the currency for growth.  If a currency is backed by something, it can't be debased (inflated).
  
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BobK71
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Re: The Misunderstandings of 'Free Trade'
Reply #64 - Apr 24th, 2018 at 12:53pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Apr 24th, 2018 at 12:36pm:
I'm afraid Billie is right on this one.  Too many people are  living fairly comfortably under our current system of using fake money.   For a true libertarian republic to come about that uses real money we would either have to have a catastrophic economic failure or some kind of breakaway republic that starts from scratch.  The after-failure scenario has a greater chance of succeeding because people would  remember - for a while - how bad it got when we used fake money.



This is sad but true.  As I mentioned somewhere, it is a long haul battle but is worth fighting, due in no small part to my belief that, for every extra bit of awareness by the public, there appears an extra bit of restraint against the global imperial elites, and thus a bit of progress.
  
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BobK71
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Re: The Misunderstandings of 'Free Trade'
Reply #65 - Apr 24th, 2018 at 12:55pm
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Don_G wrote on Apr 24th, 2018 at 12:40pm:
Your long suit is always reasoning Bob but you're always short suited on libertarian principles to apply to the problems.

Having said that, I'm not suggesting that possible solutions shouldn't be discussed on a libertarian forum. Just that no solutions are forthcoming from any libertarian that can't be said to be otherwise mainstream.

If there are any rational ideas or solutions, they can't be said to be strictly libertarian. Libertarianism can't be applied to a large country. I doubt it could even be applied to a small town.

It causes me to wonder what you're doing here? Can you explain?


Are you saying the ideas I just proposed were mainstream?  Certainly they're not.

'Libertarian' is just a label.  I don't intend to spend much time thinking about it.
  
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Don_G
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Re: The Misunderstandings of 'Free Trade'
Reply #66 - Apr 24th, 2018 at 1:02pm
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BobK71 wrote on Apr 24th, 2018 at 12:53pm:
This is sad but true.  As I mentioned somewhere, it is a long haul battle but is worth fighting, due in no small part to my belief that, for every extra bit of awareness by the public, there appears an extra bit of restraint against the global imperial elites, and thus a bit of progress.


I think you're missing the real problem completely. The people have been duped into accepting the American way. We should discuss what that means, not just ignore it.

The purely capitalist US system is failing the people but they're oblivious of the plain fact that people in other countreis are enjoying the success of capitalism with a blend of socialism fitted in.

The rich, the elite, protect the vision of the American way at all costs. Anything else would bring the hoarders of wealth and the super rich down.

Libertarianism is the protest movement against that American way. But the people on this board haven't been able to escape their indoctrination yet. They absolutely don't understand that other countries that have leanded left by including socialist policy, have found the answer.

Are you there yet Bob?
  
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BobK71
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Re: The Misunderstandings of 'Free Trade'
Reply #67 - Apr 24th, 2018 at 1:49pm
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Don_G wrote on Apr 24th, 2018 at 1:02pm:
I think you're missing the real problem completely. The people have been duped into accepting the American way. We should discuss what that means, not just ignore it.

The purely capitalist US system is failing the people but they're oblivious of the plain fact that people in other countreis are enjoying the success of capitalism with a blend of socialism fitted in.

The rich, the elite, protect the vision of the American way at all costs. Anything else would bring the hoarders of wealth and the super rich down.

Libertarianism is the protest movement against that American way. But the people on this board haven't been able to escape their indoctrination yet. They absolutely don't understand that other countries that have leanded left by including socialist policy, have found the answer.

Are you there yet Bob?


I understand that you have an internally consistent set of opinions.

Why don't we start from scratch.  Forget 'libertarian,' 'capitalism,' and differences among countries, for now.  These tend to ill-defined to start with and can take a long time, and get nowhere.

The key part of human civilization is simply a set of rules (that people may or may not want to follow.)  We discuss whether some rules are better than others.

We happen to disagree whether it's better to have a small set of rules (free-market capitalism) or a larger set (more government involvement in the economy/markets.)

Why is that?
  
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Don_G
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Re: The Misunderstandings of 'Free Trade'
Reply #68 - Apr 24th, 2018 at 1:59pm
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BobK71 wrote on Apr 24th, 2018 at 1:49pm:
I understand that you have an internally consistent set of opinions.

Why don't we start from scratch.  Forget 'libertarian,' 'capitalism,' and differences among countries, for now.  These tend to ill-defined to start with and can take a long time, and get nowhere.

The key part of human civilization is simply a set of rules (that people may or may not want to follow.)  We discuss whether some rules are better than others.

We happen to disagree whether it's better to have a small set of rules (free-market capitalism) or a larger set (more government involvement in the economy/markets.)

Why is that?


Sure, fine Bob. Let's begin on your terms. I think the difference is only imagined. I could make the argument that I don't believe more rules (regulations) are necessary than you accept are necessary.

It's always been with me that the libertarian only imagines he can't do away with regulations but he never states specific regulations which would beg the question with me.

So on your terms, if I've read you right, start by pointing out the differences in our priorities. Government involvement or regulation? I'll leave that  up to you for now.

I just love the example of universal health care because I have already won the debate before it's even started. But that wouldn't be fair to you to name our poison.
  
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Billie
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Re: The Misunderstandings of 'Free Trade'
Reply #69 - Apr 24th, 2018 at 3:07pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Apr 24th, 2018 at 12:36pm:
I'm afraid Billie is right on this one.  Too many people are  living fairly comfortably under our current system of using fake money.
Lots and lots of people are getting really really rich. Much of it is paper gains fueled by fake money.

There are solutions available, but nobody "in power" seems interested in them.

That's why I think it best to try and hang a few Congress people before things really do turn to homemade shit.

Do you see some way out other than drastic measures to limit government?
  
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