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Jeff
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Re: The Fall Of California - A Paradise Lost
Reply #180 - Jul 9th, 2018 at 2:21pm
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SkyChief wrote on Jul 9th, 2018 at 10:03am:
Wait a sec...

So the government controls the production and distribution of agriculture?  That's socialism.    Smiley
They interfere with free markets. Farmers still own the land (or lease it) and do the work and get to keep the profits, less taxes. It's more crony capitalism is all.
  
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Re: The Fall Of California - A Paradise Lost
Reply #181 - Jul 9th, 2018 at 4:03pm
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Jeff wrote on Jul 9th, 2018 at 7:04am:
I'm not buying the claim that farming is "different" and therefore needs help from the government. Big agribusiness is just another crony industry.


I did not argue that agri-business or farmers need help from the government to stabilize prices. Just the opposite, pay attention. 

Marketing boards are run by the industries themselves to bank money in rich years to pay back in lean years. The helps with the boom-bust cycles that can be difficult to plan for. No tax dollars are involved. There is a real question if these marketing boards are a monopoly combine that government allows to exist, but that is another question.

Payments to "not-produce" with tax payers dollars is a Goverment  subsidy (welfare for the rich cronies). It is a facile argument that payments "not to produce" are different than subsidizing production ("to produce") with tax payers money. I did not support this approach that is used by the US Government.
  
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Re: The Fall Of California - A Paradise Lost
Reply #182 - Jul 9th, 2018 at 4:23pm
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goodbye wrote on Jul 9th, 2018 at 4:03pm:
I did not argue that agri-business or farmers need help from the government to stabilize prices. Just the opposite, pay attention. 

Marketing boards are run by the industries themselves to bank money in rich years to pay back in lean years.
Please link me to the website of one of these marketing boards. Thanks.
  
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Re: The Fall Of California - A Paradise Lost
Reply #183 - Jul 9th, 2018 at 5:11pm
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Jeff wrote on Jul 9th, 2018 at 4:23pm:
Please link me to the website of one of these marketing boards. Thanks.

You will see lots of debate and arguments about marketing boards and how they work or don't work. It is another topic more related to agri-business that would be really boring and complex to to talk about.

My point was to say that the US system of support for farmers and Canadian system is the issue of the current NAFTA free trade war started by the Trump Administration which has led to tariffs that negatively affect us consumers.

Here is a basic info link for the more than 80 boards, all of which are somewhat different. Some good and some not so good. I am only interested in the basic idea behind marketing board  compared to paying farmers to leave land fallow.

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/agricultural-marketing-board/
  
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Re: The Fall Of California - A Paradise Lost
Reply #184 - Jul 10th, 2018 at 3:04am
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SkyChief wrote on Mar 11th, 2018 at 2:39pm:
The Golden State is becoming demographically, culturally, and economically a Third World country.

75% of Southern Californians can’t afford a home, and 16 of the top 25 least affordable American communities are in California.

California has the highest poverty rate in the nation.

40% of the population wants to leave, and they cite cost of living, traffic, housing, and homelessness as the top four problems.

It’s not just that mass immigration is straining local infrastructure, increasing demand on housing, and bringing crime, disease, and cultural conflict. It’s that diversity caused much of this collapse to begin with.

California is a state that owes its regnant liberalism to a political alliance between the super-rich and the super-poor.

https://www.amren.com/commentary/2018/03/the-fall-of-california/

The state may split. Like Virginia and Carolina did.  The new spinoff State will become Jefferson.  I will move there if they can keep the Dems from taking over the legislature. That's why California is such a cesspit today - the Dems ruin it for everyone with their excessive taxes, reckless spending on social entitlements, and crony projects. Yuck!


I don't understand some of your stats. Home ownership is over 50% in California. (50% of population live in homes they or their parents own)  Its poverty rate percentage of residents is no where near the worst , which is Mississippi I think.

Its public schools system used to be near the top every year among all states, but now it is down in the middle range.

Of course even the stats I see can be played with, depending on who, how and what you count or how you interpret the data.


I lived for many years in the Bay area, Santa Barbara and Los Angeles. In the 60s and 70s. It was the beautiful golden state with a thriving economy in those days. California was always the model for the future in America. 

Not any more. I don't even go there very often these days to visit friends. It is depressing to see the conditions of the state now. So I don't disagree with you that it is on a downhill slide.

Not sure if splitting the state into smaller pieces is a solution. Once you start down that path you might end up with many more mini-states to accommodate all the different philosophies. I think it is important to quote correct facts and not misleading statistics. To start building anew it is important to begin with truth and on a base that bring people together, not divide them into endlessly smaller and smaller like minded groups.

Now is not the time to retreat into smaller zones of sanity. It is important to expand the sanity zones that still exist, wherever they are. Don't surrender or retreat.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Fall Of California - A Paradise Lost
Reply #185 - Jul 10th, 2018 at 8:06am
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goodbye wrote on Jul 9th, 2018 at 5:11pm:
You will see lots of debate and arguments about marketing boards and how they work or don't work. It is another topic more related to agri-business that would be really boring and complex to to talk about.

My point was to say that the US system of support for farmers and Canadian system is the issue of the current NAFTA free trade war started by the Trump Administration which has led to tariffs that negatively affect us consumers.

Here is a basic info link for the more than 80 boards, all of which are somewhat different. Some good and some not so good. I am only interested in the basic idea behind marketing board  compared to paying farmers to leave land fallow.

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/agricultural-marketing-board/
I didn't know you were talking about Canada. Actually you weren't.
  
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Re: The Fall Of California - A Paradise Lost
Reply #186 - Jul 10th, 2018 at 8:08am
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goodbye wrote on Jul 10th, 2018 at 3:04am:
I don't understand some of your stats. Home ownership is over 50% in California. (50% of population live in homes they or their parents own)  Its poverty rate percentage of residents is no where near the worst , which is Mississippi I think.

Its public schools system used to be near the top every year among all states, but now it is down in the middle range.

Of course even the stats I see can be played with, depending on who, how and what you count or how you interpret the data.


I lived for many years in the Bay area, Santa Barbara and Los Angeles. In the 60s and 70s. It was the beautiful golden state with a thriving economy in those days. California was always the model for the future in America. 

Not any more. I don't even go there very often these days to visit friends. It is depressing to see the conditions of the state now. So I don't disagree with you that it is on a downhill slide.

Not sure if splitting the state into smaller pieces is a solution. Once you start down that path you might end up with many more mini-states to accommodate all the different philosophies. I think it is important to quote correct facts and not misleading statistics. To start building anew it is important to begin with truth and on a base that bring people together, not divide them into endlessly smaller and smaller like minded groups.

Now is not the time to retreat into smaller zones of sanity. It is important to expand the sanity zones that still exist, wherever they are. Don't surrender or retreat.
A better idea is to limit the government...

If it's any consolation, NJ is shooting itself in the foot too-

http://thecrux.com/the-state-of-new-jersey-just-signed-its-own-death-warrant/

OK, the entire U.S. is shooting itself in the head-

http://thecrux.com/the-usa-is-now-a-third-world-nation/
  
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Re: The Fall Of California - A Paradise Lost
Reply #187 - Jul 10th, 2018 at 9:14am
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Stockton, California to give $500 in basic income to some residents
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/stockton-california-to-give-dollar500-in...

Quote:
Just 80 miles east of Silicon Valley, one of the wealthiest regions in the country, is Stockton, California — once known as America's foreclosure capital.
Soon, the former bankrupt city will become the first in the country to participate in a test of Universal Basic Income, also known as UBI. Stockton will give 100 residents $500 a month for 18 months, no strings attached.


When socialism doesn't work, try more socialism.
Roll Eyes
  
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Re: The Fall Of California - A Paradise Lost
Reply #188 - Jul 10th, 2018 at 11:22am
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goodbye wrote on Jul 10th, 2018 at 3:04am:
I lived for many years in the Bay area, Santa Barbara and Los Angeles. In the 60s and 70s. It was the beautiful golden state with a thriving economy in those days. California was always the model for the future in America. 

Not any more. I don't even go there very often these days to visit friends. It is depressing to see the conditions of the state now. So I don't disagree with you that it is on a downhill slide.

Indeed, it was.  It used to be beautiful state - a paradise.  All that changed.   Santa Barbara is still as beautiful as ever, but the traffic on the 101 is horrendous - a real nightmare. Most people I've talked to dread going there.

goodbye wrote on Jul 10th, 2018 at 3:04am:
Not sure if splitting the state into smaller pieces is a solution. Once you start down that path you might end up with many more mini-states to accommodate all the different philosophies.

That's the goal, actually.  We want to corral the neo-liberals/progressives into northern California, where they can tax and regulate themselves into oblivion.

Central and Southern Californians will have our own Governor and Legislatures. Taxes and stupid laws will go way down (or maybe even go away!)..   There is hope that we can restore the paradise and break free of the stranglehold the Democrats have on us for the past 35 years.

For libertarians, the split-up of California is long overdue.

goodbye wrote on Jul 10th, 2018 at 3:04am:
Now is not the time to retreat into smaller zones of sanity. It is important to expand the sanity zones that still exist, wherever they are. Don't surrender or retreat.
The sanity zones are dwindling.  There are still a few pockets of sanity in SoCal, but they're becoming harder to find these days.

The Cal-3 Measure will be on the November ballot.  Californians will decide.
  
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Re: The Fall Of California - A Paradise Lost
Reply #189 - Jul 10th, 2018 at 1:00pm
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SkyChief wrote on Jul 10th, 2018 at 11:22am:
Indeed, it was.  It used to be beautiful state - a paradise.  All that changed.   Santa Barbara is still as beautiful as ever, but the traffic on the 101 is horrendous - a real nightmare. Most people I've talked to dread going there.

That's the goal, actually.  We want to corral the neo-liberals/progressives into northern California, where they can tax and regulate themselves into oblivion.

Central and Southern Californians will have our own Governor and Legislatures. Taxes and stupid laws will go way down (or maybe even go away!)..   There is hope that we can restore the paradise and break free of the stranglehold the Democrats have on us for the past 35 years.

For libertarians, the split-up of California is long overdue.

The sanity zones are dwindling.  There are still a few pockets of sanity in SoCal, but they're becoming harder to find these days.

The Cal-3 Measure will be on the November ballot.  Californians will decide. 


I haven't been in California for years but when I was there in 93 I saw signs of change from what it was in the 60's. The signes were posted on the boulevards threatening fines of $10,000 for not picking up dog shit, and other infractions.

I think that my travels to other states allows me to say that California is still not as bad as any of the other shithole states I've visited. Texas? The polluted scrapyard of America?  Doesn't it feel strange that Texas is the leading bastion of true and unlimited capitalism?

It's that California is getting nearly as bad as that now.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=pictures+of+texas+junk+piles&rlz=1C1GGGE_enCA448C...

Is California the same now Chief? I think that rich people probably work in Texas and live in California. I would.

Hey wait! I am rich and I already live in paradise!
  

I was Don G. but Craig owns me now.
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