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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 50 Reasons Pseudo-Libertarians are Crazy. (Read 1341 times)
SkyChief
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Re: 50 Reasons Pseudo-Libertarians are Crazy.
Reply #10 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 3:13am
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RubyHypatia wrote on Mar 11th, 2018 at 6:00pm:
Don doesn't get to decide what a real libertarian is.  In fact, anyone know what Don really is?

A troll.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: 50 Reasons Pseudo-Libertarians are Crazy.
Reply #11 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 4:08am
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There's actually nothing wrong with most of that list except the nasty little commentary.

The greatest libertarian philosophers say that animals don't have rights and I recall a thread on this very forum that could not condemn blackmail because it's not aggression.

While these are the purest and most extreme libertarian beliefs, that's what they are. If you believe in the Non-Aggression Principle but you get upset because people take you to task for it, you need to adopt another principle.

• abolish laws against dog & cock fighting... just animate property killing each other

https://mises.org/library/rights-animals
Quote:
Thus, while natural rights, as we have been emphasizing, are absolute, there is one sense in which they are relative: they are relative to the species man. A rights-ethic for mankind is precisely that: for all men, regardless of race, creed, color, or sex, but for the species man alone. The Biblical story was insightful to the effect that man was "given" — or, in natural law, we may say "has" — dominion over all the species of the earth. Natural law is necessarily species-bound.

• allow for privatized segregation & discrimination (no jews, n*ggers, catholics, sp*cs, women, people over 50, gays, children allowed)

https://mises.org/library/discrimination-marketplace
Quote:
Liberty means freedom to discriminate. This statement makes many people on both the Left and Right angry. Yet the right of FedEx and UPS to refuse shipping of controversial material is the same right as a racist store owner’s right to put up a “No Blacks” sign, or a baker’s right not to sell wedding cakes to same-sex couples, or Starbucks’ right to forbid the open carry of handguns in its stores. It is the same right exercised by the fashion magazine editor who hires only beautiful models.


• legalize child labor...

https://mises.org/library/trouble-child-labor-laws
Quote:
What is lost in the bargain? Kids no longer have the choice to work for money. Parents who believe that their children would benefit from the experience are at a loss. Consumers who would today benefit from our teens' technological knowhow have no commercial way to do so. They have been forcibly excluded from the matrix of exchange.


So which of the points do you think are false? The only one I've found that's flat false is point 42:

• pre-emptive killing of as much as 40% of islamic peoples... and make the rest objectivists

No idea where they got that. None at all.

Some (like the selfishness being a virtue one) are statements of moral value which are neither true nor false to attribute to libertarians, but a bit deceptive to put on the list.

But the ones that do outright speak to policy directly are largely not wrong.

I will defend every position on that list because most of them are libertarian positions, and I believe they're right. If you can't stand by your beliefs and you can only get offended and dodge the issue when someone says you have those beliefs by saying, "you don't get to define libertarianism" while not denying you hold those beliefs, you need to get new beliefs.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: 50 Reasons Pseudo-Libertarians are Crazy.
Reply #12 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 6:55am
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The Opposition wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 4:08am:
The greatest libertarian philosophers say that animals don't have rights and I recall a thread on this very forum that could not condemn blackmail because it's not aggression.

While these are the purest and most extreme libertarian beliefs, that's what they are.
Nonsense. Animals have the right to be treated humanely and blackmail is most certainly aggression.

All this time on the forum trying to learn about libertarianism and you still can't grasp the barest essentials.
  
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RubyHypatia
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Re: 50 Reasons Pseudo-Libertarians are Crazy.
Reply #13 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 9:07am
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I think Don is a liberal troll.  Just a vibe I get.
  
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ahhell
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Re: 50 Reasons Pseudo-Libertarians are Crazy.
Reply #14 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 11:33am
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Its more of a list of straman arguments that progressives use against libertarians.  It assumes that all libertarians believe all of the most extreme things that any libertarian, objectivist, or anarchist believes.
  
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Don_G
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Re: 50 Reasons Pseudo-Libertarians are Crazy.
Reply #15 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 11:57am
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RubyHypatia wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 9:07am:
I think Don is a liberal troll.  Just a vibe I get.


You could have just asked Ruby. No need to sit and fret over the question. Actually, I think you're a wacko pseudo-libertarian like most of the others, but I'm not interested enough to bother asking.
  
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Don_G
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Re: 50 Reasons Pseudo-Libertarians are Crazy.
Reply #16 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 12:02pm
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ahhell wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 11:33am:
Its more of a list of straman arguments that progressives use against libertarians.  It assumes that all libertarians believe all of the most extreme things that any libertarian, objectivist, or anarchist believes. 


The list may contain a few strawman arguments but essentially, I've heard nearly all of them here on this forum. Some may have been stated differently but that's because it wasn't a batshit crazed libertarian who made the list. He wasn't interested in sparing any feelings. I can give you examples but I have the feeling you don't want to explore any libertarian illusions right now.

I have little doubt you are totally aware of a lot of them that sane people can't subscribe to. I invite anybody who wants to talk about any of them to speak up!

Oppo blew the whistle on it when he said that he found nearly all of them true.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: 50 Reasons Pseudo-Libertarians are Crazy.
Reply #17 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 3:59pm
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ahhell wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 11:33am:
Its more of a list of strawman arguments that progressives use against libertarians.  It assumes that all libertarians believe all of the most extreme things that any libertarian, objectivist, or anarchist believes. 


Yes, they are extreme beliefs. And yes it's true that many libertarians are more moderate.

But there's strong philosophy behind the most extreme, purest versions of the theory being correct. You don't get to have the libertarian beliefs you like because the alternative is force, without accepting the NAP as a whole. You don't get to kill and eat an animal because an animal doesn't have rights and then blast the lady crushing mice with stilettos because animals do have rights.

Jeff wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 6:55am:
Nonsense. Animals have the right to be treated humanely


You only believe animals have the right to be treated humanely by the nonreligious.

Jeff wrote on Dec 23rd, 2017 at 7:52am:
Slaughtering animals for food according to religious prescripts is not animal abuse.
Slaughtering animals in the same way for fun would be.

Too subtle for you?


Jeff wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 6:55am:
blackmail is most certainly aggression


Here's what the Mises institute says about blackmail:

https://mises.org/library/defending-blackmailer
In blackmail, however, what is being "threatened" is something that the blackmailer does have a right to do — whether it be exercising the right of free speech, refusing to patronize certain stores, or persuading others to do likewise. What is being threatened is not in itself illegitimate; it is, therefore, not possible to call the "threat" an illegitimate threat.

Blackmail can only be illegitimate when there is a special foresworn relationship between the blackmailer and the blackmailed. A secret-keeper may take a lawyer or a private investigator into his confidence on the condition that the confidence be maintained in secrecy.


If you want to disagree, disagree with the Mises Institute, not me.

Send them a letter worded the way you word your posts to me and see what happens.

Quote:
The list may contain a few strawman arguments but essentially, I've heard nearly all of them here on this forum.


So have I. There was a thread about the blackmail thing. Read it if you like.

http://www.libertariansforum.com/cgi-bin/freedom/YaBB.pl?num=1444760288/0

You clearly win this one, whether you're trolling or not.

Libertarians: "We believe X should be legal because it violates no rights."
Progressives: "OMG libertarians believe X!!!"
Libertarians: "You progressives don't get to define libertarianism!!! HISSSSSSS"

The libertarians should have won this one by standing up for their beliefs rather than acting like a bunch of cockroaches in the kitchen when you turn on the light, scurrying for their dark corners where they can congratulate each other on having their rotten beliefs in peace.

The sad thing is, those beliefs are not actually rotten. I believe they're right. I can give you reasons why. The fact that libertarians act like they know their own beliefs are faulty and hiss back underneath the fridge saddens me.

It's perhaps a reaction to the knowledge that their beliefs don't pass the smell test for most people. But to me, that's fine. I can defend them with reason. I can show how they're the result of principles being consistently applied.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: 50 Reasons Pseudo-Libertarians are Crazy.
Reply #18 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 5:21pm
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The Opposition wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 3:59pm:
Here's what the Mises institute says about blackmail:

https://mises.org/library/defending-blackmailer
In blackmail, however, what is being "threatened" is something that the blackmailer does have a right to do — whether it be exercising the right of free speech, refusing to patronize certain stores, or persuading others to do likewise. What is being threatened is not in itself illegitimate; it is, therefore, not possible to call the "threat" an illegitimate threat.

Blackmail can only be illegitimate when there is a special foresworn relationship between the blackmailer and the blackmailed. A secret-keeper may take a lawyer or a private investigator into his confidence on the condition that the confidence be maintained in secrecy.

Let's see... I find out you are operating a bordello (a perfectly acceptable thing to most libertarians) in a city where prostitution is illegal.

I threaten to turn you in to the police and prosecutors who will close your business and put you in prison unless you cut me in on your profits.

Blackmail or not?


  
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Re: 50 Reasons Pseudo-Libertarians are Crazy.
Reply #19 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 5:24pm
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The Opposition wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 3:59pm:
You only believe animals have the right to be treated humanely by the nonreligious.
You can't grasp what it means to slaughter animals for food in a humane manner, or how that differs from torturing animals to death for fun.


  
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