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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 50 Reasons Pseudo-Libertarians are Crazy. (Read 1080 times)
The Opposition
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Re: 50 Reasons Pseudo-Libertarians are Crazy.
Reply #60 - Mar 14th, 2018 at 1:58am
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Sicklers Dink wrote on Mar 14th, 2018 at 12:38am:
You'll get your ass kicked right back there if you don't behave.


You're going to kick me no matter what so it doesn't matter.
  

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MMMark
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Re: 50 Reasons Pseudo-Libertarians are Crazy.
Reply #61 - Mar 14th, 2018 at 3:09am
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Wed. 18/03/14 03:04 EDT
.post #31

Sicklers Dink wrote on Mar 14th, 2018 at 12:34am:
I would consider it punishment to not allow a doctor who is not licensed to practice medicine.

I don't consider it "punishment"; I consider it "aggression."  If you physically interfere with a man's ability to offer medical services, you are committing aggression.


Sicklers Dink wrote on Mar 14th, 2018 at 12:34am:
We have established that the item on my llist of 50 is indeed a political priority of pseudo-libertarians

I don't understand your meaning, nor do I know to which item you refer.



Sicklers Dink wrote on Mar 14th, 2018 at 12:34am:
Would you like to test another issue from my list? You can choose the issure if you like or I'll choose it. We can deal with all 50 if you like.

Are you "testing me" or "test(ing) issues"?  In any event I'll give you my opinion if you ask.




Sicklers Dink wrote on Mar 14th, 2018 at 12:34am:
All you have to keep in mind is that it's my job to show that the issues raised are indeed stated libertarian political priorities. I think your mission was/is to prove that they aren't?

I wouldn't say what you've just said, at least not the way you've said it.

This "list of 50[SIC - 57] reasons" is bogus.

The composer of this list claims that these items are "positions" of "some libertarians."
He doesn't substantiate this claim.  Which libertarians?  When?  Where?  No links, no references, nothing but his claim.

The composer of this list then says they (i.e. the un-named "libertarians") "are crazy"...but the title of his list isn't "some libertarians are crazy" or "here are 57 or less (could even be just one) libertarian(s) who are crazy"  but instead "libertarians are crazy."

That's bogus too.

This list contains a number of statements that do not derive from libertarian principles.  While it may be true (but as I mentioned earlier, we can't verify) that someone, somewhere, sometime, who called himself or was called "a libertarian" said one or another of these unlibertarian things, to include such statements in a list that purports to be indicative of "libertarian positions" is careless in the extreme, and possibly worse.  The composer of this list is therefore either illiterate re: libertarianism or he is a liar - i.e. he is a member of the two groups I mentioned earlier, one who genuinely misunderstands or one who understands but intentionally misrepresents; in neither case should he be considered reliable.

This list utterly omits any mention whatsoever of libertarian principles.  Can you imagine mathematics (for example) being taught this way?  "Here is a list of 57 statements, students.  Memorize them, and we'll call that Group Theory."  Some student then has the temerity to raise his hand and ask "How are these statements related or derived, Professor?"  The Professor answers "It's just Guano-Insano - memorize them.  Exam is next Monday."

This presentation of a political system as merely a "list of positions" is what passes for "Conservatism" and "Liberalism" and all the other "isms" and the composer of this list wants to portray Libertarianism as just another version (only crazier) of a "list of positions" unconnected by any underlying and unifying structure.  His aim is not to "insult" libertarianism but rather to present such a corrupted, grotesque, and incomplete version of it that most neophytes would instantly reject it as absurd and repulsive.

The composer of this list also ridicules several activities which involve no aggression - hence, he is either hostile towards non-aggression or he is oblivious to the role non-aggression plays in libertarian ethics.  Again, either one of these flaws renders his status as a reliable source null and void.

If this weren't enough, the composer of this list then loudly proclaims his ignorance of or hostility towards non-aggression by adding his snarky, gratuitous and utterly unhelpful comments - which is nothing more than a virtue-signalling tactic.  It's the composer's way of insinuating "Hey, look at how crazy libertarians are...so glad you and I are sane!"

No links to any of the fine scholarly libertarian works or organizations or theorists and thinkers, no mention of all the wonderful, humane, sophisticated arguments, no concern for economics that actually makes sense, no acknowledgement of the Socratic pursuit of truth and order, no genuine effort to honestly examine the topic - just 57 statements and snarky comments, presented in the most inflammatory possible format.


It's just utter bollocks, rubbish, a shambles.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: 50 Reasons Pseudo-Libertarians are Crazy.
Reply #62 - Mar 14th, 2018 at 5:52am
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MMMark wrote on Mar 14th, 2018 at 3:09am:
I don't consider it "punishment"; I consider it "aggression."  If you physically interfere with a man's ability to offer medical services, you are committing aggression.


Why am I not allowed to believe this without getting flamed?
  

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Jeff
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Re: 50 Reasons Pseudo-Libertarians are Crazy.
Reply #63 - Mar 14th, 2018 at 8:41am
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MMMark wrote on Mar 13th, 2018 at 8:37pm:
Tues. 18/03/13 20:37 EDT
.post #28

I suppose what I wrote could be considered "nonsense" if "the list" to which I was referring  is the one you mention, above...but I was referring to this list.
What's the point of that list? Probably it proves Don_G is a "pseudo libertarian".
  
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Jeff
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Re: 50 Reasons Pseudo-Libertarians are Crazy.
Reply #64 - Mar 14th, 2018 at 8:47am
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MMMark wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 12:09am:
50 reasons (some) non-libertarians are super-smart:[/size]

1. Make a list of 57 straw men and call it "50 Reasons Libertarians Are Crazy" ... Hey man, they're just words and numbers!   What's with you Libertarians and "truth," anyway?
It was "50 Reasons Pseudo-Libertarians are Crazy" which is hard for libertarians to disagree with...
  
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Sicklers Dink
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Re: 50 Reasons Pseudo-Libertarians are Crazy.
Reply #65 - Mar 14th, 2018 at 1:10pm
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MMMark wrote on Mar 14th, 2018 at 3:09am:
Wed. 18/03/14 03:04 EDT
.post #31

I don't consider it "punishment"; I consider it "aggression."  If you physically interfere with a man's ability to offer medical services, you are committing aggression.


I don't understand your meaning, nor do I know to which item you refer.



Are you "testing me" or "test(ing) issues"?  In any event I'll give you my opinion if you ask.




I wouldn't say what you've just said, at least not the way you've said it.

This "list of 50[SIC - 57] reasons" is bogus.

The composer of this list claims that these items are "positions" of "some libertarians."
He doesn't substantiate this claim.  Which libertarians?  When?  Where?  No links, no references, nothing but his claim.

The composer of this list then says they (i.e. the un-named "libertarians") "are crazy"...but the title of his list isn't "some libertarians are crazy" or "here are 57 or less (could even be just one) libertarian(s) who are crazy"  but instead "libertarians are crazy."

That's bogus too.

This list contains a number of statements that do not derive from libertarian principles.  While it may be true (but as I mentioned earlier, we can't verify) that someone, somewhere, sometime, who called himself or was called "a libertarian" said one or another of these unlibertarian things, to include such statements in a list that purports to be indicative of "libertarian positions" is careless in the extreme, and possibly worse.  The composer of this list is therefore either illiterate re: libertarianism or he is a liar - i.e. he is a member of the two groups I mentioned earlier, one who genuinely misunderstands or one who understands but intentionally misrepresents; in neither case should he be considered reliable.

This list utterly omits any mention whatsoever of libertarian principles.  Can you imagine mathematics (for example) being taught this way?  "Here is a list of 57 statements, students.  Memorize them, and we'll call that Group Theory."  Some student then has the temerity to raise his hand and ask "How are these statements related or derived, Professor?"  The Professor answers "It's just Guano-Insano - memorize them.  Exam is next Monday."

This presentation of a political system as merely a "list of positions" is what passes for "Conservatism" and "Liberalism" and all the other "isms" and the composer of this list wants to portray Libertarianism as just another version (only crazier) of a "list of positions" unconnected by any underlying and unifying structure.  His aim is not to "insult" libertarianism but rather to present such a corrupted, grotesque, and incomplete version of it that most neophytes would instantly reject it as absurd and repulsive.

The composer of this list also ridicules several activities which involve no aggression - hence, he is either hostile towards non-aggression or he is oblivious to the role non-aggression plays in libertarian ethics.  Again, either one of these flaws renders his status as a reliable source null and void.

If this weren't enough, the composer of this list then loudly proclaims his ignorance of or hostility towards non-aggression by adding his snarky, gratuitous and utterly unhelpful comments - which is nothing more than a virtue-signalling tactic.  It's the composer's way of insinuating "Hey, look at how crazy libertarians are...so glad you and I are sane!"

No links to any of the fine scholarly libertarian works or organizations or theorists and thinkers, no mention of all the wonderful, humane, sophisticated arguments, no concern for economics that actually makes sense, no acknowledgement of the Socratic pursuit of truth and order, no genuine effort to honestly examine the topic - just 57 statements and snarky comments, presented in the most inflammatory possible format.


It's just utter bollocks, rubbish, a shambles.


The list of 50 which I posted, refers to stated libertarian principle that have been stated time and again on this forum. If you prefer, I'm happy to just say that the people stating their positions on this board are not 'real' libertarians. They're pseudo-libertarians who don't represent libertarianism.

Fwiw, I think that's what you are wanting to do. I'll start from scratch with you if you like. I'll accept that the others have said far too much that you would think as inconsistent with libertarianism.

As to the items on the list of 50: We have already used two examples that relate diretly to 'their' libertarian principles. If you are content to leave those as 'theirs' and not yours then we can continue in a more rational direction.

I've written some facts on licensing and regulations which pertain to ditchdiggers or workers who enter excavations. I think I've made it plain enough that the regulations enacted in that case cannot be eliminated. If you can agree then we're away to a start on finding common ground.
  
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Jeff
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Re: 50 Reasons Pseudo-Libertarians are Crazy.
Reply #66 - Mar 14th, 2018 at 5:55pm
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Sicklers Dink wrote on Mar 14th, 2018 at 1:10pm:
The list of 50 which I posted, refers to stated libertarian principle that have been stated time and again on this forum.
As ahhell pointed out, strawman propositions. Dishonest crap.
  
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MMMark
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Re: 50 Reasons Pseudo-Libertarians are Crazy.
Reply #67 - Mar 14th, 2018 at 7:28pm
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Wed. 18/03/14 19:25 EDT
.post #33

Sicklers Dink wrote on Mar 14th, 2018 at 1:10pm:
The list of 50 which I posted, refers to stated libertarian principle that have been stated time and again on this forum.

It does not refer to any "libertarian principles."  It makes no reference or mention whatsoever of libertarian principles.
All it makes reference to are some unidentified "libertarians" to whom the composer of the list attributes these "positions."


Sicklers Dink wrote on Mar 14th, 2018 at 1:10pm:
As to the items on the list of 50: We have already used two examples that relate diretly to 'their' libertarian principles. If you are content to leave those as 'theirs' and not yours then we can continue in a more rational direction.

At the risk of seeming rude, I've read the above several times and it doesn't make much sense to me.


Sicklers Dink wrote on Mar 14th, 2018 at 1:10pm:
I've written some facts on licensing and regulations which pertain to ditchdiggers or workers who enter excavations. I think I've made it plain enough that the regulations enacted in that case cannot be eliminated. If you can agree then we're away to a start on finding common ground.

To say 'the regulations enacted in that case cannot be eliminated' is obviously incorrect.  They were legislatively or bureaucratically created and can be abolished or eliminated.  This is not a matter of opinion, but rather, a fact.
« Last Edit: Mar 14th, 2018 at 9:08pm by MMMark »  
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Sicklers Dink
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Re: 50 Reasons Pseudo-Libertarians are Crazy.
Reply #68 - Mar 14th, 2018 at 7:37pm
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MMMark wrote on Mar 14th, 2018 at 7:28pm:
Wed. 18/03/114 19:25 EDT
.post #33

It does not refer to any "libertarian principles."  It makes no reference or mention whatsoever of libertarian principles.
All it makes reference to are some unidentified "libertarians" to whom the composer of the list attributes these "positions."


At the risk of seeming rude, I've read the above several times and it doesn't make much sense to me.


Sorry, let me try to make sense out of that. The libertarian principles we've dealt with from my list have been acknowledged by some of the others are libertarian principle. The Opposition wrote a quite well worded post on the ones that did and a few exceptions which he didn't think applied. (from my list)  If you don't consider any of that list applies to you than you can say so and I'll respect your opinion.

And so, to start anew, can we deal with 'licensing' as a libertarian principle that should be done away with or perhaps avoided? Is this a libertarian principle for you? I have burnsred telling me now that doctors don't need to be licensed! Duhhhh!


Quote:
To say 'the regulations enacted in that case cannot be eliminated' is obviously incorrect.  They were legislatively or bureaucratically created and can be abolished or eliminated.  This is not a matter of opinion, but rather, a fact.


That may be true in some cases. I would suggest that it's not in most. We'll have to deal with specifics.

What case? It doesn't really matter but if that's what you prefer to talk about then let's get down the the meat of the discussion.
  
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Re: 50 Reasons Pseudo-Libertarians are Crazy.
Reply #69 - Mar 14th, 2018 at 9:07pm
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Wed. 18/03/14 21:06 EDT
.post #34

Sicklers Dink wrote on Mar 14th, 2018 at 7:37pm:
The libertarian principles we've dealt with from my list have been acknowledged by some of the others are libertarian principle.

This is not a proper English sentence...I honestly don't know what you are trying to say here.

You keep referring to "libertarian principles from your list" and I keep saying "there are none," so we are failing badly here to communicate.

Do you equate "libertarian principles" with "libertarian positions"?  If not, please explain the difference.



Sicklers Dink wrote on Mar 14th, 2018 at 7:37pm:
The Opposition wrote a quite well worded post on the ones that did and a few exceptions which he didn't think applied. (from my list)  If you don't consider any of that list applies to you than you can say so and I'll respect your opinion.

I don't know what you mean by "applies to me."

I tried to answer what I think you're asking, in this post:

Quote:
The composer of this list also ridicules several activities which involve no aggression.
and
Quote:
This list contains a number of statements that do not derive from libertarian principles.

So, libertarian principles permit some of the listed activities and do not permit others.  None of the listed activities, however, are what I would call 'libertarian positions.'  That is just the list composer's wording.




Sicklers Dink wrote on Mar 14th, 2018 at 7:37pm:
... we deal with 'licensing' as a libertarian principle that should be done away with or perhaps avoided? Is this a libertarian principle for you?

Licensing is an activity, not a libertarian principle...so I don't understand what you are asking here.


I await you response to what I asked, here.
  
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