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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Licensing? (Read 1016 times)
Don_G
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Licensing?
Mar 13th, 2018 at 8:38pm
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It seems that pseudo-libertarians are not in favour of licensing. This could mean something to the extreme such as not requiring M.D.'s to have a license or credentials to practice, all the way down to not requiring a ditch digger to have a safety certificate to do his job.

I'm totally of the opinion that it's sheer insanity to suggest either.

Why would pseudo-libertarians not agree? Would any 'real' libertarians also not agree.

Would they advocate sending a ditch digger int a hole that's deeper than 4 feet without proper shoring or sloping? Hundreds of ditch diggers die every year because of being buried alive. If not literally thousands?
  
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MMMark
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Re: Licensing?
Reply #1 - Mar 13th, 2018 at 9:13pm
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Tues. 18/03/13 21:12 EDT
.post #30

Would you prefer that I re-post here, or to resume in the 50 Reasons thread?
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Licensing?
Reply #2 - Mar 13th, 2018 at 9:35pm
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It seems that pseudo-libertarians are not in favour of licensing. This could mean something to the extreme such as not requiring M.D.'s to have a license or credentials to practice, all the way down to not requiring a ditch digger to have a safety certificate to do his job.

I'm totally of the opinion that it's sheer insanity to suggest either.

Why would pseudo-libertarians not agree? Would any 'real' libertarians also not agree.

Would they advocate sending a ditch digger int a hole that's deeper than 4 feet without proper shoring or sloping? Hundreds of ditch diggers die every year because of being buried alive. If not literally thousands?


That's an interesting stat about buried alive ditch diggers.  Where did you find it?

Anyway, it's a bit of a leap to say that not wanting ditch diggers to forced to be licensed is the same as wanting ditches to be dug in unsafe ways.  I do see stories over the internets about ditch collapses.  They seem to happen in a variety of countries with presumably a variety of licensing regulations.  Those licenses didn't save the thousands of people killed per year. 

Licensing doesn't ensure that a professional will only follow safe practices and lack of licensing doesn't ensure that a professional will follow those procedures.

My objection to government licensing of certain professions are that government maintains that it has power to force people to get them or refrain from practicing their chosen professions.  They back this power up with guns as with all government powers.   I object to guns being used against innocent people.  Call me crazy.

Unlike many libertarians, I would be willing to allow government to license doctors, lawyers, psychic tarot card readers and anyone else it thinks it could make a buck off of on two conditions:

1 - The licensing is entirely voluntary.  The motivation for licensees would be having an official seal of approval to hang on their wall.  Or use as a placemat for their crystal balls.  Whatever.  But no penalties for those professionals or for people who pay those professionals who choose not be be licensed.

2 - Whatever fees they charge people for the optional licenses must be the sole funding for the agencies doing the licensing.  For the overwhelming majority of professions licensed, paying the fee is the only requirement.  That doesn't keep anyone safe, but if the agency wants to do background checks, test applicants or whatever else they have to charge enough to cover those things, not rob people at gunpoint to pay for their licensing.


  

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The Opposition
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Re: Licensing?
Reply #3 - Mar 13th, 2018 at 10:13pm
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I'll get flamed no matter what I say. So I guess I don't get to have an opinion. Only libertarians get to have an opinion.

Jeff wrote on Mar 13th, 2018 at 6:13pm:
The Opposition wrote on Mar 13th, 2018 at 6:10pm:
For example, it's not very nice to stop an unlicensed doctor from providing substandard care to a patient for whom he is the only hope. You're just mandating that the patient die, then.

fooch

Edit: Coward. Dishonest evasive coward. Not my problem, but it might be why your Mother tried to kill you.




Jeff wrote on Mar 13th, 2018 at 7:35pm:
The Opposition wrote on Mar 13th, 2018 at 6:36pm:
Jeff wrote on Mar 13th, 2018 at 6:13pm:
fooch

Edit: Coward. Dishonest evasive coward. Not my problem, but it might be why your Mother tried to kill you.


Alright then. It is nice to stop unlicensed medical care. Okay? I can't fight your insults so whenever you do this, I'll just change my position and agree with you instead.


Why? You want to burn practical midwives and traditional healers as Witches?


So how about this?

My opinion is: [insert correct libertarian opinion]
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Don_G
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Re: Licensing?
Reply #4 - Mar 14th, 2018 at 12:24am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Mar 13th, 2018 at 9:35pm:
That's an interesting stat about buried alive ditch diggers.  Where did you find it?

Anyway, it's a bit of a leap to say that not wanting ditch diggers to forced to be licensed is the same as wanting ditches to be dug in unsafe ways.  I do see stories over the internets about ditch collapses.  They seem to happen in a variety of countries with presumably a variety of licensing regulations.  Those licenses didn't save the thousands of people killed per year. 

Licensing doesn't ensure that a professional will only follow safe practices and lack of licensing doesn't ensure that a professional will follow those procedures.

My objection to government licensing of certain professions are that government maintains that it has power to force people to get them or refrain from practicing their chosen professions.  They back this power up with guns as with all government powers.   I object to guns being used against innocent people.  Call me crazy.

Unlike many libertarians, I would be willing to allow government to license doctors, lawyers, psychic tarot card readers and anyone else it thinks it could make a buck off of on two conditions:

1 - The licensing is entirely voluntary.  The motivation for licensees would be having an official seal of approval to hang on their wall.  Or use as a placemat for their crystal balls.  Whatever.  But no penalties for those professionals or for people who pay those professionals who choose not be be licensed.

2 - Whatever fees they charge people for the optional licenses must be the sole funding for the agencies doing the licensing.  For the overwhelming majority of professions licensed, paying the fee is the only requirement.  That doesn't keep anyone safe, but if the agency wants to do background checks, test applicants or whatever else they have to charge enough to cover those things, not rob people at gunpoint to pay for their licensing.



The ditchdiggers was just an example of people who work on underground infrastructure. As a former safety professional, I'm aware of precautions that have to be taken because of so many accidents. Next time you drive past an excavation which requires workers to go deeper than 4 feet, you will likely see steel shoring lowered into the hole.

It's one of the safety measures that's taboo to disregard. Similar to safety regs and requirements for cranes and overhead hoists, where greater numbers of workers are either killed or injured.

Your other comments are ridiculous and off base. I'm much more interested in what MMM has to say about it.

Are you forgetting that this isn't a discussion on fees, but rather a discussion on licensing being a libertarian concern? Don't let the board outgrow you!
  
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Don_G
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Re: Licensing?
Reply #5 - Mar 14th, 2018 at 12:25am
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MMMark wrote on Mar 13th, 2018 at 9:13pm:
Tues. 18/03/13 21:12 EDT
.post #30

Would you prefer that I re-post here, or to resume in the 50 Reasons thread?


You're the one who complained about the 50 reasons thread. You decide.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Licensing?
Reply #6 - Mar 14th, 2018 at 8:28am
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The ditchdiggers was just an example of people who work on underground infrastructure. As a former safety professional, I'm aware of precautions that have to be taken because of so many accidents. Next time you drive past an excavation which requires workers to go deeper than 4 feet, you will likely see steel shoring lowered into the hole.

It's one of the safety measures that's taboo to disregard.
Depending on the soil conditions, it's often safe to dig ditches deeper than four feet. One size fits all arbitrary regulations cost everybody money, even if they aren't keeping everybody safe. Assume that people who work in ditches are more knowledgeable about them and more concerned for their own safety than bureaucrats.

BTW, on average between 1992 and 2001, 54 people died in ditches each year. More died from falling off of bicycles...
  
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Jeff
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Re: Licensing?
Reply #7 - Mar 14th, 2018 at 8:31am
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The Opposition wrote on Mar 13th, 2018 at 10:13pm:
My opinion is: [insert correct libertarian opinion]
Licensing is a means to create a monopoly so that licensed people can charge more money for their work.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Licensing?
Reply #8 - Mar 14th, 2018 at 10:47am
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The ditchdiggers was just an example of people who work on underground infrastructure. As a former safety professional, I'm aware of precautions that have to be taken because of so many accidents. Next time you drive past an excavation which requires workers to go deeper than 4 feet, you will likely see steel shoring lowered into the hole.

It's one of the safety measures that's taboo to disregard. Similar to safety regs and requirements for cranes and overhead hoists, where greater numbers of workers are either killed or injured.


Sounds like you were a knowledgeable and caring safety professional.  Surely you don't mean to say that this was entirely due to the government license you had?  In other words, had the government decided to stop issuing and requiring licenses for safety professionals would you have suddenly become uninformed and uncaring?

Quote:
Your other comments are ridiculous and off base. I'm much more interested in what MMM has to say about it.

Are you forgetting that this isn't a discussion on fees, but rather a discussion on licensing being a libertarian concern? Don't let the board outgrow you!


LoL!  I know lots of people that's happened to.

Fees are the heart and soul of licensing.  They make licenses just another way for government to tax people.  Kings saw that they were easily getting their cut of farmer's wealth production under the feudal system, but when towns formed and people developed skills such as blacksmithing and barbering (in those days also primary caregivers), they knew tracking percents of earnings would be harder so they simply charged a fee up front.

The claim that licensing ensures safety is like when the feudal kings and their vassals would claim that they protected the commoners from dragons so the taxes actually benefit the people who pay them.

  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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ahhell
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Re: Licensing?
Reply #9 - Mar 14th, 2018 at 11:23am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Mar 13th, 2018 at 9:35pm:
1 - The licensing is entirely voluntary.  The motivation for licensees would be having an official seal of approval to hang on their wall.  Or use as a placemat for their crystal balls.  Whatever.  But no penalties for those professionals or for people who pay those professionals who choose not be be licensed.

This is not an unreasonable compromise. All though I strongly object to licensing BS professions because it would give undue status to psychics and what not. It should only be for professions with reasonable argument for an impact on public safety.

Side note regarding licensing fees, a few years ago Engineers raised the price of testing in order to be more in line with Dr's and Lawyers.  The figured this would raise the status of the profession. 


  
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