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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Mexico Should Stop the Caravan for Humanitarian Reasons (Read 1225 times)
SkyChief
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Re: Mexico Should Stop the Caravan for Humanitarian Reasons
Reply #60 - May 2nd, 2018 at 12:14pm
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The Opposition wrote on May 1st, 2018 at 10:47pm:
As far as I know, trades of goods or services for gold or other goods/services are not illegal. Skychief said he did it once, but this is beside the point.

Iv'e done it many times, actually.  Smiley  It's called barter - when goods or services are offered in exchange for other goods or services.

The Opposition wrote on May 1st, 2018 at 10:47pm:
It is a libertarian duty not to violate the NAP. If you are using government force to keep people off other peoples' property, just because their superior work ethic, productivity, and efficiency will destroy you, then you are guilty of aggression.

Government has 3 roles:

• Protecting the individual rights/liberties of its citizens.

• National Defense (defending the homeland against invaders  - which includes Border Security and vetting people who come into our country).

• building and maintaining essential infrastructure.

Vetting people who come into our country deos not violate NAP.  Checking a person's background is not aggression.

Until an immigrant steps on US soil, Constitutional rights and protections do not apply.

If a person wearing a white robe and a pointy hat knocks on my door and I turn him away, I did not aggress.


  
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Don_G
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Re: Mexico Should Stop the Caravan for Humanitarian Reasons
Reply #61 - May 2nd, 2018 at 12:17pm
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SkyChief wrote on May 2nd, 2018 at 12:14pm:
Iv'e done it many times, actually.  Smiley  It's called barter - when goods or services are offered in exchange for other goods or services.

Government has 3 roles:

• Protecting the individual rights/liberties of its citizens.

• National Defense (defending the homeland against invaders  - which includes Border Security and vetting people who come into our country).

• building and maintaining essential infrastructure.

Vetting people who come into our country deos not violate NAP.  Checking a person's background is not aggression.

Until an immigrant steps on US soil, Constitutional rights and protections do not apply.

If a person wearing a white robe and a pointy hat knocks on my door and I turn him away, I did not aggress.




Interesting that you mention white robes and not bedsheets!
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Mexico Should Stop the Caravan for Humanitarian Reasons
Reply #62 - May 2nd, 2018 at 2:36pm
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The Opposition wrote on May 1st, 2018 at 10:47pm:
As far as I know, trades of goods or services for gold or other goods/services are not illegal. Skychief said he did it once, but this is beside the point.

You're stating that when someone gets $10000 from the mafia don, they share in the aggression. It's absurd because that money doesn't end with the woman asking for it. It goes to the hospital or the doctor and everyone else. Because blood money exists, everyone is guilty? Even the doughnut shop guy who sells the don a bavarian creme and a coffee every morning?


Yes, they are all just as guilty if they knew that the money was extorted from someone.  No matter how many times that money changes hands, it is tainted with forceful theft unless it is returned to the rightful owner.

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There is one knockdown refutation to anyone but the aggressor being an aggressor.

They did not use force.


Neither does a getaway driver during a bank robbery.  But his share of the loot is still stolen money.



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This is a clear example of you letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. Less aggression is always better than more.


It is not good when people are stealing to feed people who come to this country to eat stolen food and we encourage more to come in by opening our borders completely.


Quote:
Fairness is nowhere in the NAP. Therefore it is irrelevant. There simply does not exist this consideration you're making for Johnny that it is somehow better to let him aggress because Robbie is let to.


That is a pragmatic, not a moral argument. If you acknowledge that the NAP needs to be broken or even bent, just because it will avert disaster, you don't really have a lot of faith in the NAP.


What I'm saying is that advocating selectively applying the NAP will make libertarianism appear to the cause of people's being aggressed agains.  As in, "those damn libertarians opened the border and now my taxes are being raised to pay for more immigrants on welfare!"  Only a person whose secret goal was for libertarianism to fail by . . . oooooooh!


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If we can only recall the medics, we recall the medics.

We're living under a government, and in a situation, wherein taxation and redistribution will not stop. The Left, who runs the country, will, however, open the borders.

It is a libertarian duty not to violate the NAP. If you are using government force to keep people off other peoples' property, just because their superior work ethic, productivity, and efficiency will destroy you, then you are guilty of aggression.

The voter uses government force (through his vote, which effects the aggression directly) and the immigrant merely receives a willing gift.

You have every right to demonstrate and protest for closed borders. You do not have a right to vote for them, or for candidates who promise them.


You have no faith in your own philosophy, so you concede that what is more libertarian is not always better than that which is less.

You're conceding that libertarianism is not perfect, when it actually is.


Only if perfectly applied. 


  

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Jeff
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Re: Mexico Should Stop the Caravan for Humanitarian Reasons
Reply #63 - May 2nd, 2018 at 6:09pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on May 2nd, 2018 at 2:36pm:
Yes, they are all just as guilty if they knew that the money was extorted from someone.  No matter how many times that money changes hands, it is tainted with forceful theft unless it is returned to the rightful owner.
That seems as strange an idea to me as the idea that property can be guilty of a crime.

Are not knowledge and intent necessary elements of any crime?

You want a legal requirement that I make everyone who pays me for anything prove they aren't giving me "tainted" money?


  
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SkyChief
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Re: Mexico Should Stop the Caravan for Humanitarian Reasons
Reply #64 - May 2nd, 2018 at 7:57pm
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In an effort to "fast-track" the Caravan asylum-seekers,  Att.Gen. Jeff Sessions is sending dozens of immgration judges to the US/Mexico border to review the many asylum request cases of the Caravan people.

"...sadly, many will be denied." said Sessions.  "People are not going to caravan or otherwise stampede our border.", he added.

As of 2 hours ago, 28 Caravan members have been processed for asylum. It has not been reported how many of thos 28 petitions have been granted.

There's a backlog in Immigration Court of some 700,000 cases and a three-year wait, but Caravan People are hoping to jump to the head of the line.   

Some critics say that's not fair - to expedite these asylum-seekers just because their story is headline news and the MSM is eager to tell the story.

I have a better solution to all these silly immigration games.

Offer Guest Visas to the Caravan People.  $500 USD buys them a 12-month Guest Visa.  Which can be renewed indefinitely!!

Now, there's some REAL immigration Reform. Benefits the immigrants, and benefits the US taxpayers.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Mexico Should Stop the Caravan for Humanitarian Reasons
Reply #65 - May 3rd, 2018 at 12:56am
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SkyChief wrote on May 2nd, 2018 at 7:57pm:
In an effort to "fast-track" the Caravan asylum-seekers,  Att.Gen. Jeff Sessions is sending dozens of immgration judges to the US/Mexico border to review the many asylum request cases of the Caravan people.

"...sadly, many will be denied." said Sessions.  "People are not going to caravan or otherwise stampede our border.", he added.

As of 2 hours ago, 28 Caravan members have been processed for asylum. It has not been reported how many of thos 28 petitions have been granted.

There's a backlog in Immigration Court of some 700,000 cases and a three-year wait, but Caravan People are hoping to jump to the head of the line.   

Some critics say that's not fair - to expedite these asylum-seekers just because their story is headline news and the MSM is eager to tell the story.

I have a better solution to all these silly immigration games.

Offer Guest Visas to the Caravan People.  $500 USD buys them a 12-month Guest Visa.  Which can be renewed indefinitely!!

Now, there's some REAL immigration Reform. Benefits the immigrants, and benefits the US taxpayers.


More imaginary shit pouring out of you libertarian skull.

If Sessions says something positive then you know he's scamming his audience. That evil fukker is as racist as it can get in the land of racism.

But in his defense, he's one hell of a lot more of a sophisticated racist than the dumbassed deniers on this forum.

Excluding Ruby who isn't even a convincing denier.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Mexico Should Stop the Caravan for Humanitarian Reasons
Reply #66 - May 3rd, 2018 at 1:18am
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Snarky Sack wrote on May 2nd, 2018 at 2:36pm:
Yes, they are all just as guilty if they knew that the money was extorted from someone.  No matter how many times that money changes hands, it is tainted with forceful theft unless it is returned to the rightful owner.


So the woman in my original example should behave thusly: Tell her idiot brother who doesn't know the Don is a Don to ask him for money. Because the idiot brother doesn't know, the blood is cleansed from the money.

Even if you now claim the blood on the money reappears if it comes to the woman because she is aware of the Don's aggression, she can simply ask her brother to use it to pay the doctor and save her child.

Snarky Sack wrote on May 2nd, 2018 at 2:36pm:
Neither does a getaway driver during a bank robbery.  But his share of the loot is still stolen money.


Correct. That stolen money can be confiscated and returned because it's not his property. He cannot be charged with aggression because he committed no aggression.

As I said in the beginning, charge the immigrant with possessing your money and take them to a private court to get it back. If you can prove those dollars are your dollars, have at it.

Snarky Sack wrote on May 2nd, 2018 at 2:36pm:
It is not good when people are stealing to feed people who come to this country to eat stolen food and we encourage more to come in by opening our borders completely.


The opening borders is not the part of that that's "not good". The stealing is.

Snarky Sack wrote on May 2nd, 2018 at 2:36pm:
What I'm saying is that advocating selectively applying the NAP will make libertarianism appear to the cause of people's being aggressed agains.  As in, "those damn libertarians opened the border and now my taxes are being raised to pay for more immigrants on welfare!"  Only a person whose secret goal was for libertarianism to fail by . . . oooooooh!


The only goal I have is to follow the NAP. It's true I find freedom detestable on every level, but I have also come to believe it is moral, and perfectly so.

If you think you have to add vinegar to honey to make honey palatable, it means you think honey is unpalatable. You believe that the NAP is not the only consideration.

Snarky Sack wrote on May 2nd, 2018 at 2:36pm:
Only if perfectly applied. 


What you're missing is that you are considering a factor that is not in the NAP: Fairness. It is better to you, to punish neither Johnny nor Robbie than only one.

This means you believe the NAP is imperfect. If the NAP is the only consideration, we would simply follow the NAP as closely as possible with considerations not in the NAP being irrelevant.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Mexico Should Stop the Caravan for Humanitarian Reasons
Reply #67 - May 3rd, 2018 at 7:59am
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SkyChief wrote on May 2nd, 2018 at 7:57pm:
I have a better solution to all these silly immigration games.

Offer Guest Visas to the Caravan People.  $500 USD buys them a 12-month Guest Visa.  Which can be renewed indefinitely!!

Now, there's some REAL immigration Reform. Benefits the immigrants, and benefits the US taxpayers.
Let's make sure they have a job lined up first, and no visa renewal unless they continue to be employed. We already give visas to people like that who are doctors and scientists and engineers, why not do it for carpenters and farmers?
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Mexico Should Stop the Caravan for Humanitarian Reasons
Reply #68 - May 3rd, 2018 at 11:06am
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The Opposition wrote on May 3rd, 2018 at 1:18am:
So the woman in my original example should behave thusly: Tell her idiot brother who doesn't know the Don is a Don to ask him for money. Because the idiot brother doesn't know, the blood is cleansed from the money.

Even if you now claim the blood on the money reappears if it comes to the woman because she is aware of the Don's aggression, she can simply ask her brother to use it to pay the doctor and save her child.


Correct. That stolen money can be confiscated and returned because it's not his property. He cannot be charged with aggression because he committed no aggression.

As I said in the beginning, charge the immigrant with possessing your money and take them to a private court to get it back. If you can prove those dollars are your dollars, have at it.


The opening borders is not the part of that that's "not good". The stealing is.


The only goal I have is to follow the NAP. It's true I find freedom detestable on every level, but I have also come to believe it is moral, and perfectly so.

If you think you have to add vinegar to honey to make honey palatable, it means you think honey is unpalatable. You believe that the NAP is not the only consideration.


What you're missing is that you are considering a factor that is not in the NAP: Fairness. It is better to you, to punish neither Johnny nor Robbie than only one.

This means you believe the NAP is imperfect. If the NAP is the only consideration, we would simply follow the NAP as closely as possible with considerations not in the NAP being irrelevant.


If I mentioned fairness, I misspoke.  It isn't at all about fairness.  Stopping one child from hitting but not the other isn't stopping aggression a little bit.  It doesn't stop aggression at all because the child who isn't stopped will only double down on the aggression because why not.  Same principle applies to the border.  Stopping the aggression of keeping the border closed without also stopping the aggression of welfare will only increase the number of people coming to get welfare, thus actually increasing the net aggression.

Laws (including mommy laws) that allow one person to aggress but not another isn't non-aggression.  That's government picking winners which is what we are already doing under our current authoritarian system.

That's another reason that libertarianism is difficult to implement:  People are used to government picking winners will hate it when the free market picks winners and it isn't them.  In a democracy, picked winners are always a powerful political force by virtue of either large numbers or wealth.  That's why they were picked to be winners in the first place and libertarianism won't change that.


  

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Snarky Sack
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Re: Mexico Should Stop the Caravan for Humanitarian Reasons
Reply #69 - May 3rd, 2018 at 11:10am
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Jeff wrote on May 2nd, 2018 at 6:09pm:
That seems as strange an idea to me as the idea that property can be guilty of a crime.

Are not knowledge and intent necessary elements of any crime?
Property can be the fruit of a crime and thus tainted with the crime.

Quote:
You want a legal requirement that I make everyone who pays me for anything prove they aren't giving me "tainted" money?




No, but when you cash your welfare check, you know it's tainted money.

  

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