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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Replication Crises (Read 4807 times)
Billie
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Re: The Replication Crises
Reply #650 - May 16th, 2018 at 9:34am
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SnarkySack wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 8:44am:
That has been true in an extremely limited number of cases in which psychologists have allowed themselves to be swayed by politics and culture.  For example, you believe that homosexuality is normal but that transgenderism is a mental illness.  Each of those beliefs is based on politics and culture, not any knowledge of psychology.



Actually, I don't believe either homosexuality or transgenderism is a "mental disorder, but homosexuality was determined to be a mental disorder based on the same type of logic that says that autism is a mental disorder.

Are not the criteria for both that unusual behavior is observed and that the observed behavior(s) make it difficult for the individual to function in society?
  
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Billie
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Re: The Replication Crises
Reply #651 - May 16th, 2018 at 9:39am
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SnarkySack wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 8:44am:
Breaking news for you:  Communists lie and they force people under their control to lie also.  Neither the Party bosses, nor the psychologists in a communist country actually believe that.


I've met many psychologists who were atheists and some who believe religion is harmful.  But I've never met a psychologists who believes that belief in God is a mental disorder.




Are you not an Atheist yourself? Do you not believe that belief in God is a "break with reality"?

How can an Atheist believe otherwise? Atheists claim that what I believe in does not exist, is not real, is not in fact a part of "reality".

If I believe that alien beings are speaking directly into my brain and telling me what to do, do psychologists not consider that a "break with reality"?

Why would an Atheist psychologist think any differently if I believed that God was directing my life rather than unknown aliens?

Is not a "break with reality" a sign of a mental disorder?
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: The Replication Crises
Reply #652 - May 16th, 2018 at 9:50am
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Billie wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 9:34am:
Actually, I don't believe either homosexuality or transgenderism is a "mental disorder, but homosexuality was determined to be a mental disorder based on the same type of logic that says that autism is a mental disorder.


Not at all. 

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Are not the criteria for both that unusual behavior is observed and that the observed behavior(s) make it difficult for the individual to function in society?


No, not at all.

The APA continued to call homosexuality a mental disorder long after they knew that homosexuality does not cause a loss of control or a break with reality.  They called it that because they feared a political backlash if they did not.  They only took it off the list of disorders when they feared a backlash if they continued to call it a disorder. 

Mind scientists determined that autism is a mental disorder when they observed patterns of behavior that could be distinguished from people who do not have autism disorder.  For example, a a person with low-functioning autism behaves differently from a person with intellectual disability (formerly known as mental retardation).  Early signs of developmental delay accurately predict the behavior that indicates autism in the future.  Observing some autistic behaviors in an individual accurately predicts that the observer will see other autistic behaviors in the future.

You won't believe this but it happened just last Thursday:  My wife, son and I were at another son's graduation.  My wife was explaining something to my son and asked me to back her up.  (My wife's a special educator).  She said, "See that young man in the green polo?  Is he UA?"  The first guy I though she meant was clean cut, watching the event and chatting with a companion.  I said, "Um, no . . . "  My wife redirected my attention to another young man right in front of us.  He had clean but unkempt hair that needed a hair cut.  He was hunched over a game console wearing large headphones while his parents watched the ceremony.  I said, "Yep.  That's AU alright."  My wife has no tact in a situation like that and she asked them in the isle and, of course, he was (and is) AU. 

I doubt you've read this far, but the point is that AU is an identifiable condition that is not the same as retardation, shyness, depression, general goofiness, weird sense of humor or any other description of personalities.  I get that you hate that its a mental disorder since you feel stigmatized.  I wish there was no stigma because you can't help it any more than I can help being a short guy.  If it makes you feel any better, it wasn't that long ago that a person on the autism spectrum would have been thought to be retarded or just "crazy." 

Thanks to mind scientists, people like you can be helped instead of misjudged.


  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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SnarkySack
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Re: The Replication Crises
Reply #653 - May 16th, 2018 at 9:58am
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Billie wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 9:39am:
Are you not an Atheist yourself? Do you not believe that belief in God is a "break with reality"?


I'm not an atheist, no.  I don't believe that a belief in God is a break with reality.

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How can an Atheist believe otherwise? Atheists claim that what I believe in does not exist, is not real, is not in fact a part of "reality".


This is your mistake in almost all of your conversations on this forum.  It's a part of your disorder so I don't hold it against you.  You think that if you disagree with someone, you must also think they have broken with reality.  People can just disagree and debate those disagreements without ascribing a mental disorder to their opponent. 

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If I believe that alien beings are speaking directly into my brain and telling me what to do, do psychologists not consider that a "break with reality"?


I don't.  No more than I break with reality when I feel the hand of God guiding me as I did when it guided me to leave teaching before qualifying for retirement and become a consulting educational psychologist.  God was right.  I am of greater service as a mind scientist and I'm making way more money and I can do this until I'm too old to do anything at all so I don't care about retirement.

It would indicate a break with reality, if I "heard" God audibly in a room and said to others, "Can't you hear that?  God's yelling now so you can hear Him!"  Thoughts in one's head are not a break with reality.  Everyone has them every day.


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Why would an Atheist psychologist think any differently if I believed that God was directing my life rather than unknown aliens?


Why don't you talk to some atheist psychologists instead of assuming as fact your ideas about what they think?


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Is not a "break with reality" a sign of a mental disorder?


Yes, but the break must be clear do diagnose it.  Having a different opinion is not a break with reality. 
  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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Billie
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Re: The Replication Crises
Reply #654 - May 16th, 2018 at 10:16am
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SnarkySack wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 9:50am:
The APA continued to call homosexuality a mental disorder long after they knew that homosexuality does not cause a loss of control or a break with reality.
The reality was that conventional beliefs in the U.S. held that sex was for procreation, and that sex outside of that purpose, sex just for pleasure that did not or could not lead to procreation was sinful and wrong.

It was a moral view rather than a scientific one, but it made it very difficult for homosexuals to live in society because their actions broke with the "reality" that sex is for procreation and procreation only.

Psychologists went along with it and declared that homosexuality was a mental disorder because it was a break with reality and caused problems for those who engaged in such behavior.

As you previously agreed, there was no science behind that classification. It was arbitrary and based on subjective standards.

In exactly the same fashion, psychologists are free to make a subjective decision that Faith in God is a break with reality and therefore a mental disorder.

The fact that they don't (at least in the U.S) doesn't mean they couldn't. All it would take is a majority belief in society that Faith is a complete break with reality, akin to believing in fairies ha ha.

Unlike real scientists, psychologists are free to decide among themselves that whatever they subjectively believe is a "break with reality" and causes difficulties in socialization or learning is a "mental disorder".


  
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Billie
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Re: The Replication Crises
Reply #655 - May 16th, 2018 at 10:18am
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SnarkySack wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 9:58am:
Yes, but the break must be clear do diagnose it.  Having a different opinion is not a break with reality. 
My opinion is that aliens from Voltar are telling me what to do, that they actually control my mind to the extent that force me to believe in God.
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: The Replication Crises
Reply #656 - May 16th, 2018 at 10:40am
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Billie wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 10:16am:
The reality was that conventional beliefs in the U.S. held that sex was for procreation, and that sex outside of that purpose, sex just for pleasure that did not or could not lead to procreation was sinful and wrong.

It was a moral view rather than a scientific one, but it made it very difficult for homosexuals to live in society because their actions broke with the "reality" that sex is for procreation and procreation only.

Psychologists went along with it and declared that homosexuality was a mental disorder because it was a break with reality and caused problems for those who engaged in such behavior.

As you previously agreed, there was no science behind that classification. It was arbitrary and based on subjective standards.

In exactly the same fashion, psychologists are free to make a subjective decision that Faith in God is a break with reality and therefore a mental disorder.

The fact that they don't (at least in the U.S) doesn't mean they couldn't. All it would take is a majority belief in society that Faith is a complete break with reality, akin to believing in fairies ha ha.


Wrong.

It has nothing to do with a majority belief.  You're hung up on the fact that the communist governments in Eastern Bloc countries forced psychologists to say that belief in God is a mental disorder and the fact that social pressure caused U.S. psychologists to say the same about homosexuality.  Humans are fallible, but science is always science.  The study of human behavior is science. 

If you believe that psychology isn't science because it classifies people based on arbitrary criteria, you have a right to that opinion.  But to be consistent, you also have to believe that the periodic table isn't science because it arbitrarily classifies elements into "metals," "non-metals," and "metalloids."  Is that your contention or are you inconsistent?

Quote:
Unlike real scientists, psychologists are free to decide among themselves that whatever they subjectively believe is a "break with reality" and causes difficulties in socialization or learning is a "mental disorder".




So, the gist of your argument is that you don't like the fact that people smarter than you are able to discern patterns that you cannot and therefor find confusing?


  

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ahhell
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Re: The Replication Crises
Reply #657 - May 16th, 2018 at 11:45am
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SnarkySack wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 10:40am:
It has nothing to do with a majority belief.  You're hung up on the fact that the communist governments in Eastern Bloc countries forced psychologists to say that belief in God is a mental disorder and the fact that social pressure caused U.S. psychologists to say the same about homosexuality.  Humans are fallible, but science is always science.  The study of human behavior is science. 
Its worth pointing out that one of the things Psychologists have shown through their scientific study of human behavior and cognition, we have a very strong tendency to conform our beliefs to match the beliefs of our social circles, regardless of the evidence for those beliefs.

Believing what everyone around you believes is quite normal for humans regardless of how true those beliefs are.  Even an atheist psychologist would accept that.

Billie continues to overrate the objectivity of other scientific communities. 
Quote:
"A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck%27s_principle
  
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Re: The Replication Crises
Reply #658 - May 16th, 2018 at 1:15pm
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Billie wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 9:39am:
Atheists claim that what I believe in does not exist, is not real, is not in fact a part of "reality".

Atheists make only one claim:

They don't believe in god(s).   That's it.  Just wanted to clear that up.   Smiley

(Of course, some atheists make the claim that god doesn't exist.  If challenged, they'll need to provide evidence for that claim.  Naturally, they can't, so it's a bad claim, and it should not be attributed to all atheists.)
  
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ahhell
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Re: The Replication Crises
Reply #659 - May 16th, 2018 at 2:14pm
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Billie wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 9:39am:
How can an Atheist believe otherwise? Atheists claim that what I believe in does not exist, is not real, is not in fact a part of "reality".

SkyChief wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 1:15pm:
Atheists make only one claim:

They don't believe in god(s).   That's it.  Just wanted to clear that up.   Smiley

(Of course, some atheists make the claim that god doesn't exist.  If challenged, they'll need to provide evidence for that claim.  Naturally, they can't, so it's a bad claim, and it should not be attributed to all atheists.)
Any claim to the effect of "Group X believes Y" should always be preceded by "Some".  In this case, a minority of atheists believe god does not exist.  Most, simply do not believe in any gods, where most theists do not believe in most gods.
  
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