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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Ideological Possession (Read 437 times)
Billie
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Re: Ideological Possession
Reply #10 - Apr 4th, 2018 at 8:32am
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The Opposition wrote on Apr 3rd, 2018 at 3:58pm:
The kicker is that ideology does trump reality.

If you can somehow bring about a paradise by murdering, it's still wrong to murder.

Last night I was rather happy about what the article said, but I thought about it and realised that it's a really stupid article.

People should be ideologically possessed.
Ha ha.
Even if the ideology that possesses them is something like radical Islam? Or Hitlers ideology of racially pure national socialism?
  
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Billie
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Re: Ideological Possession
Reply #11 - Apr 4th, 2018 at 8:38am
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The Opposition wrote on Apr 3rd, 2018 at 3:58pm:
Good results or bad results don't change right and wrong.
In what field of human endeavor?

Let's take political economy...

Millions of people think a communist system is "right", so they support the ideology of communism.

When the real results of trying to impose communist systems on people are death and famine and murder, according to your proposition, communist ideologues are still "right", because communism is "right" even though the results are bad. Cheesy
  
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Don_G
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Re: Ideological Possession
Reply #12 - Apr 4th, 2018 at 1:06pm
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Tom Palven wrote on Apr 3rd, 2018 at 5:20pm:
I kind of suspect it might be tongue-in-cheek, too, but I he may be laughing with libertarians since he elevated them up on a par with liberals and conservatives.

And while the term "ideological possession" is really cool and clever, it's not a new concept.  Thinking it over it seems that Eric Hoffer talked about this in his book The True Believer, 1951.


Pseudo-libertarians hooked right in to the criticism and took it personal. It was a challenge to all political persuasions but all he caught in the net was the libertarians, and so they have to make it 'tongue-in-cheek'.

Personally, I was able to read it as worthwhile wisdom to accept and I suspect that burnsred, our resident extreme rightist did too.

You've effectively proven that pseudo-libertarians are easy to bait Tom. It's a bit sad to hear you are taking the bait too. There's nothing tongue-in-cheek about it.

This forum has a few examples of what he's talking about, taken to the extreme. Just listen to the din they are making here on this thread. It's hopeful to think they may pull in their horns a bit after this! I doubt it.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Ideological Possession
Reply #13 - Apr 4th, 2018 at 1:33pm
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The proof that it's not tongue-in-cheek is in the comments! Some very good philosophical discussion going on there by some people who don't fear the truth. And some that very much fear it.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Ideological Possession
Reply #14 - Apr 4th, 2018 at 3:30pm
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Don_G wrote on Apr 4th, 2018 at 1:33pm:
The proof that it's not tongue-in-cheek is in the comments! Some very good philosophical discussion going on there by some people who don't fear the truth. And some that very much fear it.


What truth are you talking about?

We have two choices here when it comes to right and wrong.

Either ideology does trump reality, or it doesn't.

If ideology does trump reality, we can make statements like, "Murder is wrong no matter what."

If ideology does not trump reality, then nothing is right or wrong and it's just a question of consequences and subjective values. If we cannot say murder is always wrong, then along with murder, everything else is potentially fine too. Thus, right and wrong lose all meaning. They're utterly consequentialist and subjective. (Spellchecker, really? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consequentialism )

The problem is that when you say morality is a matter of consequences, it's up to taste what consequences you want, and then anything becomes potentially justifiable. There is no morality.
  

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Re: Ideological Possession
Reply #15 - Apr 4th, 2018 at 3:42pm
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The Opposition wrote on Apr 4th, 2018 at 3:30pm:
What truth are you talking about?

We have two choices here when it comes to right and wrong.

Either ideology does trump reality, or it doesn't.

If ideology does trump reality, we can make statements like, "Murder is wrong no matter what."

If ideology does not trump reality, then nothing is right or wrong and it's just a question of consequences and subjective values. If we cannot say murder is always wrong, then along with murder, everything else is potentially fine too. Thus, right and wrong lose all meaning. They're utterly consequentialist and subjective. (Spellchecker, really? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consequentialism )

The problem is that when you say morality is a matter of consequences, it's up to taste what consequences you want, and then anything becomes potentially justifiable. There is no morality.

Sure, you can say murder is always wrong but you can't say killing is always wrong.  So when does killing become murder? Depends on your ideology.

.

  
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The Opposition
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Re: Ideological Possession
Reply #16 - Apr 4th, 2018 at 3:58pm
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ahhell wrote on Apr 4th, 2018 at 3:42pm:
Sure, you can say murder is always wrong but you can't say killing is always wrong.  So when does killing become murder? Depends on your ideology.


Whatever your ideology is, it must trump reality or there is no morality.

If the answer always comes back to, "It depends on the situation," then there are no principles that help anyone choose right from wrong. Just evaluate the situation and do what you think is best. Every time. No guidelines, no prohibitions, just assessment of best benefit.
  

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Not taking Jeff seriously until he admits this is animal abuse (which he says should be illegal): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE-IT7_CaE4
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ahhell
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Re: Ideological Possession
Reply #17 - Apr 4th, 2018 at 4:16pm
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Lets see if I can make my point some other way.

X is the right thing to do and Y is the wrong thing.
What if doing X will result in Y?  What is the right thing to do?

Anyrate, I'm trying to say that consequences matter more than some ideal.  Lying is wrong but if a lie can save lives then its not wrong. Murder is wrong but if killing one guy can save 10, its not murder.  Nor is self defense. 


  
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Re: Ideological Possession
Reply #18 - Apr 4th, 2018 at 4:41pm
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ahhell wrote on Apr 4th, 2018 at 4:16pm:
Murder is wrong but if killing one guy can save 10, its not murder. 


Sorry, but nit-picking is in order here.

Killing one guy to save 10 IS murder.  Some could argue that it's justifiable, but it's still murder.

Just ask the guy who they murdered if it was cool with him that he got snuffed.  If he doesn't reply, you can take that as a "No."
  
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Don_G
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Re: Ideological Possession
Reply #19 - Apr 4th, 2018 at 5:16pm
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The Opposition wrote on Apr 4th, 2018 at 3:30pm:
What truth are you talking about?

We have two choices here when it comes to right and wrong.

Either ideology does trump reality, or it doesn't.

If ideology does trump reality, we can make statements like, "Murder is wrong no matter what."

If ideology does not trump reality, then nothing is right or wrong and it's just a question of consequences and subjective values. If we cannot say murder is always wrong, then along with murder, everything else is potentially fine too. Thus, right and wrong lose all meaning. They're utterly consequentialist and subjective. (Spellchecker, really? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consequentialism )

The problem is that when you say morality is a matter of consequences, it's up to taste what consequences you want, and then anything becomes potentially justifiable. There is no morality.


What the hell are you on about now Oppo? I didn't say morality is a matter of consequences. That doesn't even make sense in this discussion. Probably no other either?
  
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