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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Ideological Possession (Read 725 times)
Don_G
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Re: Ideological Possession
Reply #20 - Apr 4th, 2018 at 5:22pm
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ahhell wrote on Apr 4th, 2018 at 4:16pm:
Lets see if I can make my point some other way.

X is the right thing to do and Y is the wrong thing.
What if doing X will result in Y?  What is the right thing to do?

Anyrate, I'm trying to say that consequences matter more than some ideal.  Lying is wrong but if a lie can save lives then its not wrong. Murder is wrong but if killing one guy can save 10, its not murder.  Nor is self defense. 




Killing one guy to save ten is still murder. But you've explained your position on justifiable murder. Not that I agree, because I don't.

It's an invitation for an army to kill hundreds of thousands on the pretense of saving a few. It worked for Iraq because Americans accepted it.

In Vietnam it was the US burning villages and killing all the people to save them from communism.

To the topic: I think the problem with libertarians not accepting this fine essay is that they took it personal and against them and their LP.

It's not surprising that they would, yet it was no more aimed at libertarians than any other political persuasion.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Ideological Possession
Reply #21 - Apr 4th, 2018 at 5:51pm
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ahhell wrote on Apr 4th, 2018 at 3:42pm:
So when does killing become murder? Depends on your ideology.

It's a matter of settled law in America. I'm trying to stretch to decide what ideology led the common law to distinguish between manslaughter, and several degrees of murder... Intentions and motives matter... But which ideology says the intentions and motives matter?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Ideological Possession
Reply #22 - Apr 4th, 2018 at 5:53pm
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Quote:
Killing one guy to save ten is still murder.
In the U.S., the circumstances and motives matter...

Are you really saying killing to save others is always and invariably murder?
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Ideological Possession
Reply #23 - Apr 4th, 2018 at 6:56pm
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Jeff wrote on Apr 4th, 2018 at 5:53pm:
In the U.S., the circumstances and motives matter...

Are you really saying killing to save others is always and invariably murder?

If a killing is premeditated, and a killing is unlawful, then it is murder. Those two things are the only criteria for murder.

When the State exceutes a convict for a capital crime, the killing IS premeditated, but it is not unlawful, provided that State allows capital punishment. So an execution is not murder.

If there are 11 people in a lifeboat and theres water spilling over the gunnels, and they toss the weak fat guy overboard to prevent the lifeboat from sinking, it IS murder.

SkyChief wrote on Apr 4th, 2018 at 4:41pm:
Killing one guy to save 10 IS murder.  Some could argue that it's justifiable, but it's still murder.

Just ask the guy who they murdered if it was cool with him that he got snuffed.  If he doesn't reply, you can take that as a "No."

  
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ahhell
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Re: Ideological Possession
Reply #24 - Apr 4th, 2018 at 7:08pm
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SkyChief wrote on Apr 4th, 2018 at 4:41pm:
Sorry, but nit-picking is in order here.

Killing one guy to save 10 IS murder.  Some could argue that it's justifiable, but it's still murder.

Just ask the guy who they murdered if it was cool with him that he got snuffed.  If he doesn't reply, you can take that as a "No."

You are correct, I sloppily used murder.  Murder is premeditated and unlawful.

Very few people think that either murder or killing are always morally wrong though.  Going back in time and killing Hitler would be murder but most people think it would be moral.

Back to the point.  Ideology should not trump reality if the two are in conflict.  If your ideology doesn't actually mesh with reality, then you should examine your ideology.

The soviets believed lysenkoism because it suited their ideology, reality in the soviet union did not adjust to accommodate.  I'd argue that the same is true for many libertarians and global warming.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Ideological Possession
Reply #25 - Apr 4th, 2018 at 7:10pm
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SkyChief wrote on Apr 4th, 2018 at 6:56pm:
If a killing is premeditated, and a killing is unlawful, then it is murder. Those two things are the only criteria for murder.

When the State exceutes a convict for a capital crime, the killing IS premeditated, but it is not unlawful, provided that State allows capital punishment. So an execution is not murder.

If there are 11 people in a lifeboat and theres water spilling over the gunnels, and they toss the weak fat guy overboard to prevent the lifeboat from sinking, it IS murder.



You're right.

It didn't need a further explanation. Killing one person to save 10 is murder. You can provide the justification if you like.

There's no need to hook into Sickler's need for attention. He's more interested in spamming all the threads than taking part in discussion.

Remember when you used to whine all the time about me supposedly doing that? That's when you hadn't gotten used to hearing opinions that challenge your libertarian bullshit.

You're much better in that respect now! Even though you have a lot of maturing to do yet.

(laughing many now??)
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Ideological Possession
Reply #26 - Apr 4th, 2018 at 10:11pm
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ahhell wrote on Apr 4th, 2018 at 4:16pm:
Lets see if I can make my point some other way.

X is the right thing to do and Y is the wrong thing.
What if doing X will result in Y?  What is the right thing to do?


X, because it's the right thing to do.

Over a long enough time span, everything results in everything. You can't declare an action immoral because of the result.

ahhell wrote on Apr 4th, 2018 at 4:16pm:
Anyrate, I'm trying to say that consequences matter more than some ideal.  Lying is wrong but if a lie can save lives then its not wrong. Murder is wrong but if killing one guy can save 10, its not murder.  Nor is self defense. 


Killing one person is still wrong even if it will save thousands. Even if it would save billions.

Without absolutes... there. is. no. morality.

Morality exists to help us choose between right and wrong. It's a system of rules for doing that. If everything is just by the situation, to bring about the best result, morality is an entirely worthless concept.

Quote:
I didn't say morality is a matter of consequences.


I know you didn't say morality was a matter of consequences. I am saying morality is not a matter of consequences.

Quote:
That doesn't even make sense in this discussion.


Yes it does.

ahhell wrote on Apr 4th, 2018 at 7:08pm:
Very few people think that either murder or killing are always morally wrong though.  Going back in time and killing Hitler would be murder but most people think it would be moral.


Before he does anything wrong, it's murder. After, it's justice. Ask those idiots in the unexamining majority if they would kill him in his cradle.

ahhell wrote on Apr 4th, 2018 at 7:08pm:
Back to the point.  Ideology should not trump reality if the two are in conflict.  If your ideology doesn't actually mesh with reality, then you should examine your ideology.

The soviets believed lysenkoism because it suited their ideology, reality in the soviet union did not adjust to accommodate.  I'd argue that the same is true for many libertarians and global warming. 


It is simply possible that libertarianism, through the way it handles common resources, mandates ruin. Open borders certainly mandates ruin. I'm fine with that. I don't have to be a denialist to save my ideology. I simply insist that it is moral no matter the result.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Ideological Possession
Reply #27 - Apr 5th, 2018 at 8:21am
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ahhell wrote on Apr 4th, 2018 at 7:08pm:
You are correct, I sloppily used murder.  Murder is premeditated and unlawful.

It is also murder to kill in the heat of a blind rage.

Premeditation and planning are just what make murder into 1st Degree Murder.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Ideological Possession
Reply #28 - Apr 5th, 2018 at 8:31am
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ahhell wrote on Apr 4th, 2018 at 7:08pm:
Very few people think that either murder or killing are always morally wrong though.  Going back in time and killing Hitler would be murder but most people think it would be moral.

Back to the point.  Ideology should not trump reality if the two are in conflict.  If your ideology doesn't actually mesh with reality, then you should examine your ideology.

The soviets believed lysenkoism because it suited their ideology, reality in the soviet union did not adjust to accommodate.  I'd argue that the same is true for many libertarians and global warming. 
Hmm.

I agree that ideologies that don't match reality need to be examined and modified (or discarded), but I'm not sure about the way you follow that up...

Are you saying that an ideology of limited government to protect individual rights and liberty causes people to believe in "global warming" or to disbelieve?

Because "global warming" is not "settled science", people of any ideology are free to examine the evidence or lack of it and make their own decisions. Libertarians (I believe) tend to be more skeptical about accepting government pronouncements about scientific theories of any sort...

The parallel I see between the Soviet government and it's promotion of Lysenko's weird ideas and "global warming" is that "progressive" governments today are promoting "global warming" in the same way and for the same essential reasons that the Soviets liked Lysenko.

I can't see how libertarians are involved other than as skeptics who mistrust governments.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Ideological Possession
Reply #29 - Apr 5th, 2018 at 8:39am
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The Opposition wrote on Apr 4th, 2018 at 10:11pm:
Killing one person is still wrong even if it will save thousands. Even if it would save billions.

Without absolutes... there. is. no. morality.

You are absolutely wrong.

Killing an entire gang of barbarians who are attacking your home is justified, even if you kill fifty to save just your own life.
  
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