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Sicklers Dink
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Re: Libertarians Who Pay Income Taxes Are Hypocrites
Reply #10 - Apr 7th, 2018 at 2:04pm
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SkyChief wrote on Apr 6th, 2018 at 5:08pm:
Well, don't expect me to defend or support anything said by Hendrickson.  I already acknowledged in the OP that the open letter to Dr. Paul was totally inapropriate, and I called him a "crackpot"



You also said you support what he says on a fundamental leval.

Quote:
On a very fundamental level, I empathize with Hendrickson. By filing/paying Income Taxes, we are enabling gov't to engage in all the nefarious activities they like to engage in.


I assume his points are on that fundamental level. So take #9 again. Has he exaggerated the libertarian position or are you in agreement with it fundamentally?

My point is that libertarians don't do themselves any favours when they talk in such extremes. That's fundamental.
  
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thermf5
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Re: Libertarians Who Pay Income Taxes Are Hypocrites
Reply #11 - Apr 7th, 2018 at 2:09pm
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SkyChief wrote on Apr 6th, 2018 at 12:36pm:
...So says Pete Hendrickson, anyways.

Hendrickson wrote an open letter to libertarian icon, Dr. Ron Paul:



Dr. Paul, and all the rest:

Though I'm sorry to say it, the subject today is hypocrisy. YOUR hypocrisy.

Let me explain.

Over the next two weeks, you are going to sign documents giving the federal government permission to use large amounts of your money to finance or support:

• the slaughter of Houthis;
• the slaughter of Eastern Ukrainians;
• the slaughter of Syrians;
• the slow suffocation of displaced Palestinians;
• unknown evils in Africa;
• alienating and provocative belligerence toward Russia;
• alienating and provocative belligerence toward China;
• the militarization of our domestic police organizations;
• the virtual strip-searching of our wives and daughters in airports in an exercise in "security theater";
• a 14-million strong army of bureaucrats and executive-branch contractors who spend their well-paid days telling everyone else how to live their lives and conduct their business;
• the propagandizing of our children in government schools;
• an enormous federal apparatus designed to enforce laws for which no Constitutional grounds exist;
• the corruption of our political office-holders;
• a massive army of technicians spying on every American (and everyone else) without probable cause, 24/7 and a secret "court" pretended to legitimize these crimes;
• a propaganda infrastructure used to influence public opinion in directions favored by those in control of the state apparatus;
• subsidies to favored persons, industries and causes, and regulatory suppression and burdening of disfavored persons, industries and causes;
• a massive army of lawyers in Washington and in satellite fortresses dotted around the American landscape used in a million ways to suppress and punish dissent from, or resistance to, all the foregoing;

YOU ARE GOING TO SIGN DOCUMENTS GIVING PERMISSION to the feds to do all these things with YOUR money. You are going to pro-actively sign-up as a partner with the government in doing all these things, and you're going to do it voluntarily.

Oh, you'll try to dodge responsibility. You'll pretend that you are compelled by law to declare all your earnings to be tax-relevant "income" by listing them in the "income" fields on a 1040 and signing it as true, complete and correct.

But you know better.   https://www.garynorth.com/public/17925.cfm



On a very fundamental level, I empathize with Hendrickson. By filing/paying Income Taxes, we are enabling gov't to engage in all the nefarious activities they like to engage in.   But Gary North is right - Hendrickson is a crackpot and  a felon.  Because of his (lack of) character, Hendrickson's message is meaningless.

We live under the law if we break the law there are consequences depending on what the law is I'm do you really want to end up like Wesley Snipes unless you go completely off the grid or work for a non-profit or work for a religious organization basically unless you find loopholes you have to pay taxes it doesn't matter what you believe so I wouldn't say it's hypocrisy if you believe the best system would be voluntary 100% it doesn't change the fact that the world we live in is not voluntary no it would be hypocrisy would be if someone was Antitax and then pushed or voted for laws that would create more taxes what we want and what we're going to do are two separate things we do not live in our Ideal World therefore we cannot live to are ideal standard
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Libertarians Who Pay Income Taxes Are Hypocrites
Reply #12 - Apr 7th, 2018 at 6:52pm
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Sicklers Dink wrote on Apr 7th, 2018 at 2:04pm:
You also said you support what he says on a fundamental leval.

Here's what I actually said:

Quote:
On a very fundamental level, I empathize with Hendrickson.


Meaning, I understand and share his frustration with an out-of-control government.


Sicklers Dink wrote on Apr 7th, 2018 at 2:04pm:
I assume his points are on that fundamental level. So take #9 again. Has he exaggerated the libertarian position or are you in agreement with it fundamentally?


I agree with Hendrickson's assertion that, by filing and paying income tax, we are enabling the government to engage in a myriad of nefarious activities which they could not engage in without funding from income taxes.  That's why libertarians are so adamant about eliminating income tax. 

If you hand a child a stolen credit card and take him to the shopping mall and let him buy anything that he wants, he will come home with a truck-load of useless crap that nobody wants or needs.  But if you take that SAME child to the mall with a $20 bill that HE earned mowing lawns, he will buy sensible things.

We need to take away the gov't's credeit card.  They are like children - they have repeatedly demonstrated that they are unable (or unwilling) to spend the money that we give them responsibly.

Part of Socially Responsible Government means limitations on taxes and deficit spending. Income Tax needs to go.  That's why the US intervenes with the military all over the world. It's why the US has constantly been at WAR since the 16th Amendment was ratified.


  
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Re: Libertarians Who Pay Income Taxes Are Hypocrites
Reply #13 - Apr 8th, 2018 at 12:13pm
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ahhell wrote on Apr 6th, 2018 at 1:28pm:
   As a rule, we'd rather avoid jail time.


True.
  
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Sicklers Dink
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Re: Libertarians Who Pay Income Taxes Are Hypocrites
Reply #14 - Apr 8th, 2018 at 12:14pm
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SkyChief wrote on Apr 7th, 2018 at 6:52pm:
Here's what I actually said:


Meaning, I understand and share his frustration with an out-of-control government.


Thank you.

Quote:
I agree with Hendrickson's assertion that, by filing and paying income tax, we are enabling the government to engage in a myriad of nefarious activities which they could not engage in without funding from income taxes.  That's why libertarians are so adamant about eliminating income tax. 


Thank you again. But eliminating income tax is not the answer and it can never happen. There's antother solution that will work.

Quote:
If you hand a child a stolen credit card and take him to the shopping mall and let him buy anything that he wants, he will come home with a truck-load of useless crap that nobody wants or needs.


I can't answer to fantasy stories such as that. But I get the point you're trying to make. It's about irresponsible spending.

Quote:
  But if you take that SAME child to the mall with a $20 bill that HE earned mowing lawns, he will buy sensible things.


In reality he likely wouldn't but I get your point on responsible spending. I think you're trying to impress on me ideas on which we've always agreed.

Quote:
We need to take away the gov't's credeit card.  They are like children - they have repeatedly demonstrated that they are unable (or unwilling) to spend the money that we give them responsibly.


Government doesn't have a credit card but again I get your point. Your government hasn't spent wisely and you're now got a president that's demonstrating the lack of responsibility more than any time in the past. Yes/No?

Quote:
Part of Socially Responsible Government means limitations on taxes and deficit spending. Income Tax needs to go.  That's why the US intervenes with the military all over the world. It's why the US has constantly been at WAR since the 16th Amendment was ratified.




Income taxation is always going to be there but you have a point when you suggest that military spending is pushing it to higher levels.

I bolded your word,'responsibly' because you're starting to hit on the real issue. But continuing to talk about getting rid of income taxation is irresponsible and wrong.

I think you understand that and also understand that libertarianism will be reduced to nothing if that wrongheaded principle is dropped. So there's not much I can say about that, but I can continue to talk about socially responsible government.

It works you know! For example, when I conned burnsred into talking about Norway's prison system, there's nothing he could do to dispel it's success. It was a great example of socially responsible government and he was conned into having to accept the truth.

That's just one in a hundred examples of the kind of thinking it's going to take to fix the mess your country is in now. Nobody but burnsred says it isn't!
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Libertarians Who Pay Income Taxes Are Hypocrites
Reply #15 - Apr 8th, 2018 at 5:05pm
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Sicklers Dink wrote on Apr 8th, 2018 at 12:14pm:
...continuing to talk about getting rid of income taxation is irresponsible and wrong.

That's your opinion.   Most libertarians feel that the government has no right to lay claim on the fruits of our labor.  It's an affront on our core principle of self-ownership.  I share in that belief.  That's why we want to see income tax repealed. 

Sicklers Dink wrote on Apr 8th, 2018 at 12:14pm:
...eliminating income tax is not the answer and it can never happen. There's antother solution that will work.

The United States worked just fine before income taxes. Ever since the the 16th Amendment was ratified, the country has been involved in War and/or military intervention somewhere in the world. 

Coincidence?  Nope.  If we repeal income tax, the wars and nation-building will stop.   To make War, Congress relies on funding from income taxes.  If we take away the income tax, we take away the government's means to make war.
  
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Sicklers Dink
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Re: Libertarians Who Pay Income Taxes Are Hypocrites
Reply #16 - Apr 8th, 2018 at 5:39pm
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SkyChief wrote on Apr 8th, 2018 at 5:05pm:
That's your opinion.   Most libertarians feel that the government has no right to lay claim on the fruits of our labor.  It's an affront on our core principle of self-ownership.  I share in that belief.  That's why we want to see income tax repealed. 


The United States worked just fine before income taxes. Ever since the the 16th Amendment was ratified, the country has been involved in War and/or military intervention somewhere in the world. 

Coincidence?  Nope.  If we repeal income tax, the wars and nation-building will stop.   To make War, Congress relies on funding from income taxes.  If we take away the income tax, we take away the government's means to make war.


The harm being done with your opinion is in  depending on getting rid of income tax in order to stop your countries wars.

In that you make yourself ineffective and quite useless to the cause. In any case, even antiwar.com who have people who are truly sincere about stopping wars, are so few as to be quite a useless cause.

Don't connect the two but by all means waste your time trying to abolish income tax.
  
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Re: Libertarians Who Pay Income Taxes Are Hypocrites
Reply #17 - Apr 8th, 2018 at 5:48pm
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There's a really basic question here about force being used on you justifying you using force.

Someone holds a gun to your head and says kill Sally.

Are you a murderer if you do it, or is the one using force on you solely responsible?

I think the NAP's weasel-word usage of force is responsible for any misunderstanding here.

According to the NAP, threats of force are force. But it's clearly a question of an entirely different order if someone stronger than you has ahold of your hand, forces a gun into it, points it at Sally's head, and shoots. Obviously you have no fault in that.

The question I asked first is less clear because, I think, force is not actually being employed, just threats of force, which I just demonstrated were not force because if you replace one with the other, the question obviously changes.

TL;DR - I have thought it over and I actually quite agree with Hendrickson. I disagree that threats of force are force. Threats alone cannot force you to do anything.
  

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SkyChief
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Re: Libertarians Who Pay Income Taxes Are Hypocrites
Reply #18 - Apr 12th, 2018 at 12:23pm
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Sicklers Dink wrote on Apr 8th, 2018 at 5:39pm:
The harm being done with your opinion is in  depending on getting rid of income tax in order to stop your countries wars.

In that you make yourself ineffective and quite useless to the cause. In any case, even antiwar.com who have people who are truly sincere about stopping wars, are so few as to be quite a useless cause.

Don't connect the two but by all means waste your time trying to abolish income tax.

The reason we need to get rid of the Income Tax is because it makes the taxpayers subservient (at least to some degree) to the government.  The government has no right to claim ownership of an individual's wealth (or property). They DO however, have the power to do it. They granted themself the power to do this when the 16th Amendment was ratified.

Taking away the funding (from Income Taxes) so Congress can wage wars is only a fringe benefit - but it's not the reason income taxes need to go.

Dr. Paul does a much better job of explaining it:

“I want to end the income tax — and replace it with… nothing.”


But Wait! - how will we fund the government without the income tax? How can we fund essential services???

“About 45% of all federal revenue comes from the personal income tax. That means that about 55% — over half of all revenue — comes from other sources, like excise taxes, fees, and corporate taxes.

“We could eliminate the income tax, replace it with nothing, and still fund the same level of big government we had in the late 1990s. We don’t need to ‘replace’ the income tax at all."
  
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Sicklers Dink
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Re: Libertarians Who Pay Income Taxes Are Hypocrites
Reply #19 - Apr 12th, 2018 at 12:37pm
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SkyChief wrote on Apr 12th, 2018 at 12:23pm:
The reason we need to get rid of the Income Tax is because it makes the taxpayers subservient (at least to some degree) to the government.  The government has no right to claim ownership of an individual's wealth (or property). They DO however, have the power to do it. They granted themself the power to do this when the 16th Amendment was ratified.

Taking away the funding (from Income Taxes) so Congress can wage wars is only a fringe benefit - but it's not the reason income taxes need to go.

Dr. Paul does a much better job of explaining it:

“I want to end the income tax — and replace it with… nothing.”


But Wait! - how will we fund the government without the income tax? How can we fund essential services???

“About 45% of all federal revenue comes from the personal income tax. That means that about 55% — over half of all revenue — comes from other sources, like excise taxes, fees, and corporate taxes.

“We could eliminate the income tax, replace it with nothing, and still fund the same level of big government we had in the late 1990s. We don’t need to ‘replace’ the income tax at all."


Check out the video of the little boy being hosed down after the gas attack. It may put a different light on income tax, or any tax.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Swc3AW10jQM
  
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