Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › am i still interventionist if i belive in defensive wars
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) am i still interventionist if i belive in defensive wars (Read 164 times)
Billie
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 28377
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: am i still interventionist if i belive in defensive wars
Reply #10 - Apr 11th, 2018 at 9:57am
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Apr 10th, 2018 at 10:08pm:
Wars are aggression, however, and no absolutely pure libertarian ever advocates any war.
You can't seem to grasp that the concept of self defense extends to defensive warfare.

I am entertained by your continued mention of "pure" libertarians, who now apparently must be "absolutely pure"! Cheesy
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Billie
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 28377
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: am i still interventionist if i belive in defensive wars
Reply #11 - Apr 11th, 2018 at 10:01am
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Apr 10th, 2018 at 10:45pm:
Doesn't matter. If they did not personally aggress, you cannot hurt them without violating their rights.

Everything that is not aggression is their right to do.
Right. No fair sinking ships full of invading soldiers. The NAP requires that you let them land on your beach and actually kill someone first... And if they have ships standing off shore firing missiles into your cities, you can only kill the single person who pushed the launch button... Cheesy
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 6333
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: am i still interventionist if i belive in defensive wars
Reply #12 - Apr 11th, 2018 at 3:23pm
Print Post  
https://www.lewrockwell.com/1970/01/murray-n-rothbard/the-state-waxes-fat-off-wa...

Quote:
The fundamental axiom of libertarian theory is that no one may threaten or commit violence ("aggress") against another man’s person or property. Violence may be employed only against the man who commits such violence; that is, only defensively against the aggressive violence of another. In short, no violence may be employed against a non-aggressor. Here is the fundamental rule from which can be deduced the entire corpus of libertarian theory.

...

To be more concrete, if Jones finds that his property is being stolen by Smith, he has the right to repel him and try to catch him; but he has no right to repel him by bombing a building and murdering innocent people or to catch him by spraying machine gun fire into an innocent crowd. If he does this, he is as much (or more of) a criminal aggressor as Smith is.

...

The libertarian’s basic attitude toward war must then be: it is legitimate to use violence against criminals in defense of one’s rights of person and property; it is completely impermissible to violate the rights of other innocent people. War, then, is only proper when the exercise of violence is rigorously limited to the individual criminals. We may judge for ourselves how many wars or conflicts in history have met this criterion.
  

Making Sci-Fi great again since 2063.

Not taking Jeff seriously until he admits this is animal abuse (which he says should be illegal): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE-IT7_CaE4
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Billie
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 28377
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: am i still interventionist if i belive in defensive wars
Reply #13 - Apr 11th, 2018 at 3:41pm
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Apr 11th, 2018 at 3:23pm:
Right. Defensive war is fine. Making war to protect your own country is OK. Fighting to keep barbarians from killing you in you own home is permissible.

You aren't really claiming that I have to wait until they break down the door and shoot me before I can act against them are you? Rothbard isn't saying that.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 6333
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: am i still interventionist if i belive in defensive wars
Reply #14 - Apr 11th, 2018 at 3:54pm
Print Post  
https://www.lewrockwell.com/1970/01/murray-n-rothbard/the-state-waxes-fat-off-wa...

Quote:
The libertarian’s basic attitude toward war must then be: it is legitimate to use violence against criminals in defense of one’s rights of person and property; it is completely impermissible to violate the rights of other innocent people. War, then, is only proper when the exercise of violence is rigorously limited to the individual criminals. We may judge for ourselves how many wars or conflicts in history have met this criterion.
  

Making Sci-Fi great again since 2063.

Not taking Jeff seriously until he admits this is animal abuse (which he says should be illegal): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE-IT7_CaE4
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Billie
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 28377
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: am i still interventionist if i belive in defensive wars
Reply #15 - Apr 11th, 2018 at 4:03pm
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Apr 11th, 2018 at 3:54pm:
Just shoot soldiers then, except when they set up their rocket launchers next to schools and hospitals... Then, in my opinion, the violation of the NAP is on their heads.

Soldiers sign up for war. Even if one of the enemy's soldiers hasn't shot at you, it's best to kill him first if you can.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 6333
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: am i still interventionist if i belive in defensive wars
Reply #16 - Apr 11th, 2018 at 4:11pm
Print Post  
Quote:
The libertarian’s basic attitude toward war must then be: it is legitimate to use violence against criminals in defense of one’s rights of person and property; it is completely impermissible to violate the rights of other innocent people.
  

Making Sci-Fi great again since 2063.

Not taking Jeff seriously until he admits this is animal abuse (which he says should be illegal): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE-IT7_CaE4
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Don_G
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 9287
Location: British Columbia
Joined: May 8th, 2017
Re: am i still interventionist if i belive in defensive wars
Reply #17 - Apr 11th, 2018 at 5:22pm
Print Post  
Is there any US led war that won't be seen by the large majority of Americans as a defensive war.

That is the way libertarians can choose to add their blessings to war, and not be in contradiction with the NAP.

There 'are' a few exceptions. You people can meet a few at antiwar.com.

Not saying that I discount the Chief's current stand.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Billie
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 28377
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: am i still interventionist if i belive in defensive wars
Reply #18 - Apr 11th, 2018 at 5:30pm
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Apr 11th, 2018 at 4:11pm:
crappity smack Rothbard telling me I'm not a real libertarian unless I think the way he does.

Rothbard had anarchist tendencies which sometimes caused him to be irrational. Rothbard wasn't a libertarian.

So there. Now Murray and I are even.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Billie
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 28377
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: am i still interventionist if i belive in defensive wars
Reply #19 - Apr 11th, 2018 at 5:36pm
Print Post  
Don_G wrote on Apr 11th, 2018 at 5:22pm:
Is there any US led war that won't be seen by the large majority of Americans as a defensive war.

Americans couldn't manage to see the Great War or WWII as defensive wars and certainly never Korea or Vietnam or anything since.

There have always been "progressives" who wanted to pursue good wars for good purposes, and there have always been jingoists available for the "progressives" to stir up and enlist in the cause of the just war.

Now, I think people are just resigned to it, and MIC lobbyists far outweigh the opinion of working Americans.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › am i still interventionist if i belive in defensive wars
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy