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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Fundamental Tyranny (Read 545 times)
Sicklers Dink
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Re: The Fundamental Tyranny
Reply #20 - May 8th, 2018 at 8:17pm
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Jeff wrote on May 8th, 2018 at 7:57pm:
Oh. It sounded like he said only poor people can have satisfying personal relationships.

If you ever find yourself with too much money, and you find it making you unhappy, send it to me. I know good ways to use it. Thanks.


Craig, try to get well emotionally. It's not your fault!
  
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BobK71
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Re: The Fundamental Tyranny
Reply #21 - May 9th, 2018 at 8:57am
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Sicklers Dink wrote on May 8th, 2018 at 12:54pm:
Frankly Bob, you start good conversations but I have to say that you rarely stick around to finish them or to prove your conclusions. Let's finally make this one an example of you being able to stand your ground.


I am sorry that I have way less time than I would like.  I do try to follow up, but that might have been lapsing lately...

Happiness is among the most subjective things.  Anyone can claim they're happy, or the opposite.  This idea of mine (that happiness is primarily based on human connections, and that unearned wealth by the 'beneficiaries' of the imperial system erodes those connections systematically) is still a work in progress with regard to precision, but the full force of a lifetime of experience tells me it's true.

Try seeing the movie 'Lion' about a lost Indian boy adopted by an Australian couple, and you might see what I mean.
  
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BobK71
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Re: The Fundamental Tyranny
Reply #22 - May 9th, 2018 at 9:04am
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Jeff wrote on May 8th, 2018 at 2:12pm:
And people who aren't poor can't have them?


The division is not poor vs. rich, but 'beneficiaries' vs. 'victims' of the real-wealth transfer which is the world system.

You could be happy if you work at it, anywhere.  You could spend a night at the Plaza if you want it badly enough, even if you're a uber driver.  It's just that things are working systematically against you.
  
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Sicklers Dink
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Re: The Fundamental Tyranny
Reply #23 - May 9th, 2018 at 2:24pm
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BobK71 wrote on May 9th, 2018 at 8:57am:
I am sorry that I have way less time than I would like.  I do try to follow up, but that might have been lapsing lately...

Happiness is among the most subjective things.  Anyone can claim they're happy, or the opposite.  This idea of mine (that happiness is primarily based on human connections, and that unearned wealth by the 'beneficiaries' of the imperial system erodes those connections systematically) is still a work in progress with regard to precision, but the full force of a lifetime of experience tells me it's true.


I would agree with you on that Bob! Based on my lifetime of experience too.

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Try seeing the movie 'Lion' about a lost Indian boy adopted by an Australian couple, and you might see what I mean.


Being a reference from you, I'm sure it would be good. But I really don't have much interest in movies these days because they always manage to turn me off in some way. However, "The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel" was the exception. And I'll also mention "The Milagro Beanfield War". Am I with you with those two?

Having said that, I want to come back to 'measures of happiness'. I would urge you to have a look at how it was measured in this link. Then get back to me so that we can carry on the discussion.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/duncanmadden/2018/03/27/ranked-the-10-happiest-coun...

I'll begin by saying that our mutual priorities for happiness are most easily obtained in the environments illustrated in that link. I doubt they're trying to invent something that isn't so.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Fundamental Tyranny
Reply #24 - May 9th, 2018 at 6:02pm
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BobK71 wrote on May 9th, 2018 at 8:57am:
This idea of mine (that happiness is primarily based on human connections, and that unearned wealth by the 'beneficiaries' of the imperial system erodes those connections systematically) is still a work in progress with regard to precision, but the full force of a lifetime of experience tells me it's true.

Have you known people like that, people with unearned wealth they received from the Emperor?

Or did you know cronies and bureaucrats? Admittedly, they are teamed up with the Emperor.

Anyway, you say they all become sociopaths and crony capitalism is the cause?

That sounds plausible to me. Tell me more, thanks.
  
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BobK71
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Re: The Fundamental Tyranny
Reply #25 - May 10th, 2018 at 8:31pm
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Sicklers Dink wrote on May 9th, 2018 at 2:24pm:
However, "The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel" was the exception. And I'll also mention "The Milagro Beanfield War". Am I with you with those two?

Thanks, I'll keep them in mind.  Anything outside the Hollywood formula factory is good to try for me!
Sicklers Dink wrote on May 9th, 2018 at 2:24pm:
Having said that, I want to come back to 'measures of happiness'. I would urge you to have a look at how it was measured in this link. Then get back to me so that we can carry on the discussion.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/duncanmadden/2018/03/27/ranked-the-10-happiest-coun...

I'll begin by saying that our mutual priorities for happiness are most easily obtained in the environments illustrated in that link. I doubt they're trying to invent something that isn't so.


My issue with happiness studies is that you're stuck with the happiness criteria the designers decided to use.  When you include GDP, freedom, lack of corruption and life expectancy, with 'social support' being only one of the factors, you're predisposed to favoring the rich world, maybe heavily so.

I would agree that there's probably a positive correlation between social well-being and good safety nets among rich countries.  The US is the most extreme example of a 'taker' country -- its rich allies have more of a need to work for their standard of living, and thus their social fabric is stronger.  That is my theory.

But our important question is, what is the solution to unhappiness?  My idea is: take away the cause of it, which is systemic incentives (driven by the artificial money system) to treat your fellow humans poorly.

When almost every human mistake is bailed out by a systemic wealth effect, the sea of barely mature people are not going to speed up their personal development.  If the wealth is always floating around, ready to be grabbed by the best practitioners of the 'kiss up, kick down' philosophy, what kind of people do you think will rise to the top and shape the rest of society?  What kind of 'relationships' can these people forge with each other?

I think this is the problem we have to face head-on.  Social safety nets, etc. are far from addressing this issue, even if they might be justified on other grounds.
  
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Sicklers Dink
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Re: The Fundamental Tyranny
Reply #26 - May 10th, 2018 at 8:49pm
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BobK71 wrote on May 10th, 2018 at 8:31pm:
Thanks, I'll keep them in mind.  Anything outside the Hollywood formula factory is good to try for me!

My issue with happiness studies is that you're stuck with the happiness criteria the designers decided to use.  When you include GDP, freedom, lack of corruption and life expectancy, with 'social support' being only one of the factors, you're predisposed to favoring the rich world, maybe heavily so.

I would agree that there's probably a positive correlation between social well-being and good safety nets among rich countries.  The US is the most extreme example of a 'taker' country -- its rich allies have more of a need to work for their standard of living, and thus their social fabric is stronger.  That is my theory.

But our important question is, what is the solution to unhappiness?  My idea is: take away the cause of it, which is systemic incentives (driven by the artificial money system) to treat your fellow humans poorly.


I really do get what you're saying Bob. But I think you are looking at it from an American citizen's POV.

I think that all the benefits those socalled, happiest countries can't be discounted, even though factors aren't the only measure of humn being's happiness. But by the same token, take them away and happiness is going to be pretty hard to achieve.

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When almost every human mistake is bailed out by a systemic wealth effect, the sea of barely mature people are not going to speed up their personal development.  If the wealth is always floating around, ready to be grabbed by the best practitioners of the 'kiss up, kick down' philosophy, what kind of people do you think will rise to the top and shape the rest of society?  What kind of 'relationships' can these people forge with each other?


If you're referring to all the benefits that come with socially responslbie government then I can't agree. I'll use the example of government funded universal healthcare and interpret that as what you mean by 'people being bailed out by a systemic wealth effect'. ( I think you mean that as an example)

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I think this is the problem we have to face head-on.  Social safety nets, etc. are far from addressing this issue, even if they might be justified on other grounds.


Well Bob, I would have to say that social safety nets go at least half way, or maybe more. I say that because without them I see happiness as being on very shaky ground.

I spent a fairly lenghty period of time in a coastal Mexican village on the Baja and so I'm no stranger to what you are trying to illustrate. They were poor people but they displayed a degree of happiness that was quite remarkable!
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Fundamental Tyranny
Reply #27 - May 11th, 2018 at 7:45am
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BobK71 wrote on May 9th, 2018 at 9:04am:
The division is not poor vs. rich, but 'beneficiaries' vs. 'victims' of the real-wealth transfer which is the world system.

Oh. So either beneficiaries or victims are more likely to have satisfying personal relationships... Which is it? My guess is that productive people, people who work, find life in general more satisfying... They are who you are calling victims, right?

So your claim is that people living on "welfare" don't have satisfying personal relationships as often as people who aren't on welfare?

Is their evidence? It sounds plausible to me, but I don't think it will fly as an argument against wealth transfers without some solid evidence.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Fundamental Tyranny
Reply #28 - May 11th, 2018 at 7:58am
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Sicklers Dink wrote on May 10th, 2018 at 8:49pm:
I spent a fairly lenghty period of time in a coastal Mexican village on the Baja and so I'm no stranger to what you are trying to illustrate. They were poor people but they displayed a degree of happiness that was quite remarkable!
Were they working hard to make you happy so you'd give them big tips, or maybe just pretending to be happy so you'd leave them big tips? Or maybe they were just happy to have a job.

Did you get out and about away from the touristy special areas, out where people are really poor?

https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/mexico/annual-household-income-per-capita

From the data, almost everybody in Mexico should be really happy.

Here's more-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Welfare_in_Mexico
  
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Sicklers Dink
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Re: The Fundamental Tyranny
Reply #29 - May 11th, 2018 at 2:09pm
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Jeff wrote on May 11th, 2018 at 7:45am:
Oh. So either beneficiaries or victims are more likely to have satisfying personal relationships... Which is it? My guess is that productive people, people who work, find life in general more satisfying... They are who you are calling victims, right?


Great point! I agree that people who work are happier than those that don't. And I think that Bob would agree too. That's not to mean that they are happier with money than people without money. That comes into play obviously but it's not the only reason why.

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So your claim is that people living on "welfare" don't have satisfying personal relationships as often as people who aren't on welfare?


That's not what he's saying. (in his absense I'm going to make use of this thread)

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Is their evidence? It sounds plausible to me, but I don't think it will fly as an argument against wealth transfers without some solid evidence.


You don't have any real interest in a sensible conversation.
  
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