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genepool
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Should citizens be allowed to sell their citizenship?
Apr 29th, 2018 at 1:37pm
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From https://steemit.com/corporate/@freeross/should-citizens-be-allowed-to-sell-their...

Allowing citizens to sell their citizenships have certain benefits. Notice I presume that citizenship=right to live + right to vote + citizenship dividend. Many benefits can be done by simply having someone buy and sell residency visa to live and citizen dividend. I've heard some states like Dubai did it and they're quite prosperous.

However, true benefits of private citizenship market is that it gives citizens some market value. This market value will allow citizens to see whether their states perform well or not. It's like how most stockholders of tech company see whether their CEO is doing well or not. They simply check the market value of their stocks.

Of course, residency visa can have it's own market too.

There are several ways to see this

Corporate government model

As we know the best of the best government system is in corporations. Corporate governments are the best government. What kind of other government can improve profit like Apple, Google, and Microsoft.

I don't see any stockholders in Microsoft commit suicide bombing to change Microsoft's policy. I don't see employee of Google and Yahoo wage war against each other?

Why? If I own a stock of microsoft, and microsoft appoints a luddite as CEO, I don't need to get mad. I just sell my Microsoft stocks. Of course, Microsoft won't do that.

Or imagine if Microsoft declare that they plan to tax black stockholders to pay white stockholders? Simple. Black stockholders can simply sell their stocks. In fact, any sense of rent seeking from one stockholders against another stock holders will make the whole stock go tumbling down.

This option to sell stocks protect minority and eventually majority stock holders from most rent seeking. All stockholders are united in making the pie bigger rather than trying to rip off other stockholders.

I have never heard any corporations wage civil wars over the direction of the company. Even acquisition by one corporation of another is done peacefully with one corporation buying the stock of another.

So any thing that makes states government like corporate government have a high probability of improvements.

Actually democratic states behave differently from most corporations. Normally, customers do not bother voting for how a company should be run. Customers simply choose to buy some products from such companies. Most companies, however, care about what their customers want. Customers are kings of corporations.

The stockholders, and the CEO and the board of directors, go the extra mile trying to figure out what the customers want. They then choose what to produce and what the price.

In democracy, the population are mostly citizens. That is like the customers are the share holders. Having citizenship market will make this check and balance system unnecessary. A newly found state can have a king, for example. That king will still care about the well being of the population. Otherwise, nobody would come to his state and pay his tax.

This citizenship market or residency markets would work well whether the state is democracy or not. It's simply another check and balance mechanism. Don't like the way a state is managed? Just leave.

The fact that corporations, jobs, and businesses can easily move from states to states make states treat the businesses well too.

Many IT business have no idea how seyschelles work. I barely know how to spell the country name. However, it looks like a good place to incorporate with 0% tax rate. All we need to run a business is privacy.

There are many states with low taxes. Many digital nomad like to live there. Those nomads do not even bother changing their country. They just move from places to places.

However, while businesses and corporations can move easily from states to states, actual people have a hard time doing the same thing.

Most countries do not easily accept immigrants for many good reasons. And this is why states treat their population badly, even their citizens. Tax is high in many states. The mere act of making honest money is punishable by taxes. All these are done because hard working population, and citizens, can't easily get the hell out of the state and move to another state.

Citizenship market will solve this.

In general, just like in corporation, it's best to let the state be run by those most capable to do it. Also shareholders of the state should be those seeing values of the state well being instead of just people living there. If you don't know or care whether a state will prosper or not, it's best to just sell your shareholdership, or citizenship of the state and use the capital to buy the stocks you want or bitcoin.

Selling Citizenship is a Moderate Immigration Policy

Which companies have the best product? Let the customer choose. Companies with better products will sell more product and even raise price. What about if what constitute good differs from customer to customer? No problem. Each customer pick what they want.

Which government is the best government? Let the population choose. Well, we have a problem here. Just like only heretics and apostates choose their religions, only immigrants choose their country. So the logic don't work as well for states.

Also what's good for one population is bad for another. The result? We have Sunni and Syiah killing each other. We have different voting blocs lying to each other.

...
  
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thermf5
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Re: Should citizens be allowed to sell their citizenship?
Reply #1 - Apr 29th, 2018 at 2:37pm
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if we are talking abought reperations for volentary expats maby but thats not what ur talking abought
  
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Jeff
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Re: Should citizens be allowed to sell their citizenship?
Reply #2 - Apr 29th, 2018 at 6:44pm
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thermf5 wrote on Apr 29th, 2018 at 2:37pm:
if we are talking abought reperations for volentary expats maby but thats not what ur talking abought
Ownership rights in citizenship is the basic question.

I'm certain that citizenship rights are valid rights within the parameters of such rights, which arise from humanly created nations and governments and are not natural rights, but I never thought about buying and selling them...

Give it a try, sell your citizenship to a non-citizen. Draw up and sign a legal contract for the transfer of your rights.

Let us know if it works. Thanks.

Would that sort of thing work in North Korea or China?
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Should citizens be allowed to sell their citizenship?
Reply #3 - Apr 29th, 2018 at 6:58pm
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Selling Citizenship is a Moderate Immigration Policy


Correct, so it really has little to do with libertarianism.

Open borders is the ultimate goal of libertarianism.  So is protection of naturally existing rights, regardless of whether a person is a  citizen or not.  Therefor, other than voting, there are no rights gained by buying citizenship in a libertarian republic.  But under libertarianism, a government is so limited that voting is just one way to select the personnel who conduct its extremely limited operations. 

  

"Taxes are morally justified theft" - Jeff
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Jeff
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Re: Should citizens be allowed to sell their citizenship?
Reply #4 - Apr 29th, 2018 at 7:20pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Apr 29th, 2018 at 6:58pm:
Correct, so it really has little to do with libertarianism.

Open borders is the ultimate goal of libertarianism.
Sure, but we need to get rid of barbarians and the welfare state and unlimited government  first...

Let's work on that, then talk about the right to travel freely, a right that people in the most "socially responsible" nations often lack... They aren't allowed to leave.
  
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Re: Should citizens be allowed to sell their citizenship?
Reply #5 - Apr 29th, 2018 at 8:45pm
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Should citizens be allowed to sell their citizenship?


Absolutely! It's a splendid idea.

I have a list of citizens who should sell their citizenship...   mostly democrats, but there are a few republicans on the list, too!

Make 'em an offer they can't refuse.   Wink
  
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genepool
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Re: Should citizens be allowed to sell their citizenship?
Reply #6 - May 1st, 2018 at 1:26am
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SkyChief wrote on Apr 29th, 2018 at 8:45pm:


Absolutely! It's a splendid idea.

I have a list of citizens who should sell their citizenship...   mostly democrats, but there are a few republicans on the list, too!

Make 'em an offer they can't refuse.   Wink


It's not libertarianism.

It's moderate libertarianism. We balance what libertarians want (freedom, protection from force and fraud), and interests of the "owners" of the state.

And then let the market decide.

So tax is not zero. However, the states will have to compete with one another to get smart people, working capital, and other productive entities to want to move there.

This competition will "force" the states to be more libertarian.

Yes. Libertarian can use "force" too. They can make better product. That will force all their competitors to be out of business or lower price. And this is the kind of force that have been used again and again through out the world. This is what makes the world more and more libertarian.

Libertarian can also defense themselves. So a libertarian state may have strong defense. That forces other states from invading.

As long as a libertarian country is not attacked, their lower tax, and their freedom, can make even countries like North Korea, or Ethiopia, or Somalia, or Syria rich. You think it's going to be expensive to persuade rulers or citizens in those countries some better deal? May be not too much.

We've seen this with globalization. Jobs simply move to China. That is because job creation in US is an implicit welfare. Taxi driver don't normally make $3k a month. In Dubai, a free market society, taxi driver makes $250. On the other hand, an engineer easily make 10 times taxi driver in true capitalistic market.

We've seen corporate taxes dropping. That's because IT businesses can simply incorporate in seyscheles with 0% income tax.

The market, is a many arm god, with many ways to pressure states to conform to it's norm.

1. Globalization makes job creation futile
2. Tax haven makes taxing corporation futile
3. Bitcoin will make currency manipulation futile
4. A market for citizenship/residency will further makes rent seeking from one voting bloc against another less attractive
5. A libertarian country will set a standard for all states to follow. Just one prosperous free libertarian country will force every state to be libertarian or lost all their capital to that libertarian country.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Should citizens be allowed to sell their citizenship?
Reply #7 - May 1st, 2018 at 9:27am
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genepool wrote on May 1st, 2018 at 1:26am:
It's not libertarianism.

In "pure" libertarian theory, you are free to sell anything you own, so if you have ownership rights in your citizenship, you can sell your citizenship to anyone you want to. That would of course make you a non-citizen...

However in 'pure" libertarian theory, the state does not exist, so the idea of citizenship does not exist and you have nothing to sell.

In the real world, legitimately constituted states have an interest in excluding certain people from their territory for some very good reasons, and also have some plausible reasons for making citizenship a privilege. Even those born with citizenship 'rights' (which are not natural rights) can have them effectively removed.
  
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genepool
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Re: Should citizens be allowed to sell their citizenship?
Reply #8 - May 1st, 2018 at 12:00pm
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Jeff wrote on May 1st, 2018 at 9:27am:
In "pure" libertarian theory, you are free to sell anything you own, so if you have ownership rights in your citizenship, you can sell your citizenship to anyone you want to. That would of course make you a non-citizen...

However in 'pure" libertarian theory, the state does not exist, so the idea of citizenship does not exist and you have nothing to sell.

In the real world, legitimately constituted states have an interest in excluding certain people from their territory for some very good reasons, and also have some plausible reasons for making citizenship a privilege. Even those born with citizenship 'rights' (which are not natural rights) can have them effectively removed.


I think the result will be more libertarianism. Pure libertarianism is just a concept.

Think about it. The states, currently, have to compete with with other states. Some states are more well managed than the other. States that are more well managed provide economic value.

We can see that Dubai and US is more prosperous than Somalia or Syria.

Surely, the "rulers" in Dubai, South Korea, and US deserve something for their relatively wise and minimal ruling.

If you don't like it, you are free not to immigrate there.

However, currently, the way citizens in US and South Korea receive benefits from their citizenship is too distortive. Look at owners of stocks. Do they ask Microsoft to take money from some shareholders giving it to them? Of course not.

Instead, they got dividend and they can resale their citizenship.

The interests of customers are protected not mainly by customers' capability to vote. Customers don't vote. Their interests are protected by their capability to buy different products.

Currently immigrants are a great way to test if governments are doing well for it's population. However, while many wants to immigrate to US, US doesn't want to accept them.

And that's very reasonable. Anyone coming to US will enjoy most benefits of American citizens without doing anything to get it.

It's like anyone that come to microsoft office got microsoft share. It doesn't work that way.

Imagine if millions of muslims come to europe and abolish freedom of speech. You wouldn't agree.

So a solution is those coming pay.

What about those leaving? They get paid. Naturally. After all, they are taxed heavily to build infrastructure and well functioning government. Now they're not using it. It's only natural they are paid.

Knowing that they can resell their citizenship improves value of citizenship too.

At the end the market will govern the states. And I think that's a libertarian direction.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Should citizens be allowed to sell their citizenship?
Reply #9 - May 1st, 2018 at 12:27pm
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genepool wrote on May 1st, 2018 at 12:00pm:
And that's very reasonable. Anyone coming to US will enjoy most benefits of American citizens without doing anything to get it.

Right.  I proposed selling Guest Visas to immigrants wishing to come to the US.  These would be good for 12 months.  They can be renewed infinite times, but at a progressive rate.

Initial (1st) Guest Visa:  $500

2nd year (renewal):       $1000

3rd year (renewal)         $2000

4th year (renewal)         $4000

5th year (renewal)         $8000

etc, etc....

This way, all immigrants are welcome, and they don't need to buy citizenship.  The just keep renewing their Guest Visa.  (although it gets kinda expensive after 8 years.)

The revenues gained from the sale of Guest Visas could fund all Border Security infrastructure, and taxpayers would be relieved of the need to fund it with taxes. 

Applied Libertarianism...  Everyone wins!
  
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