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genepool
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The market is a many arms god
May 1st, 2018 at 3:26am
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The market, is a many arms god, with many ways to pressure states to conform to it's norm.

1. Globalization makes job creation futile
2. Tax haven makes taxing corporation futile
3. Bitcoin will make currency manipulation futile
4. A market for citizenship/residency will further makes rent seeking from one voting bloc against another less attractive
5. A libertarian country will set a standard for all states to follow. Just one prosperous free invincible libertarian country will force every state to be libertarian or lost all their capital to that libertarian country.

I think it's best to pursue, for a while, some moderate libertarianism. We balance what libertarians want (freedom, protection from force and fraud), and interests of the "owners" of the state.

And then let the market decide. I can see a lot that can be accomplished.

So tax is not zero. However, the states will have to compete with one another to get smart people, working capital, and other productive entities to want to move there. I think whichever tax is more efficient, like land tax, will replace income taxes. Income tax punish productivity like nothing else. It's the worst tax ever.

This competition will "force" the states to be more libertarian.

Yes. Libertarian can use "force" too. They can make better product. That will force all their competitors to be out of business or lower price. And this is the kind of force that have been used again and again through out the world. This is what makes the world more and more libertarian.

Libertarian can also defense themselves. So a libertarian state may have strong defense. That forces other states from invading.

As long as a libertarian country is not attacked, their lower tax, and their freedom, can make even countries like North Korea, or Ethiopia, or Somalia, or Syria rich. You think it's going to be expensive to persuade rulers or citizens in those countries some better deal? May be not too much.

We've seen this with globalization. Jobs simply move to China. That is because job creation in US is an implicit welfare. Taxi driver don't normally make $3k a month. In Dubai, a free market society, taxi driver makes $250. On the other hand, an engineer easily make 10 times taxi driver in true capitalistic market in Dubai.

We've seen corporate taxes dropping. That's because IT businesses can simply incorporate in seyscheles with 0% income tax.

I thin there is a genuine value in free libertarian government. Anyone creating such free society will have people willing to pay to move in.

That's where the money comes in.
  
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BobK71
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Re: The market is a many arms god
Reply #1 - May 1st, 2018 at 9:01am
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The "problem" of the free market is that the state-bank elites can't benefit much, so they will squash it, one way or another.  The major means is to pretend to have a free market.  We have a free goods and services market but no free monetary and financial market at the center of the system.  This is the unfortunate reality of modern life.

What you envision has materialized to some degree through wise policies in the past, and has been suppressed or co-opted by the global elites, since a freer system is a threat to the financially socialist global reality, as you imply.  Examples were Switzerland, 19th-century China, and 19th-century US.  Switzerland and China were defeated by trade, and the US was co-opted.

One of the major tools of conquest by the global elites is 'free trade,' and its twin, free flow of capital.  This flies under the glorious banner of freedom, but can't really be free since money is issued and manipulated at the center of the world system, and thus all prices are indirectly manipulated.  (One recent example was allowing the central bank of China to do the dirty work of suppressing the value of the yuan since the early 90s, thus artificially supporting the value of the dollar and lowering Western interest rates on behalf of the global elites.  All that the Western elites had to do directly was to promote 'free trade.')

My vision for a libertarian society requires: 1. a state-free monetary and financial system.  2. not trading or exchanging capital with countries tainted by monetary or financial manipulation.  3. Economic self-sufficiency, since the society might have to be totally closed to trade for a while.  4. Military means to defend itself, since we know the global elites will want 'regime change.'
  
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Jeff
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Re: The market is a many arms god
Reply #2 - May 1st, 2018 at 9:34am
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BobK71 wrote on May 1st, 2018 at 9:01am:
The "problem" of the free market is that the state-bank elites can't benefit much, so they will squash it, one way or another.  The major means is to pretend to have a free market.  We have a free goods and services market...


My vision for a libertarian society requires: 1. a state-free monetary and financial system.  2. not trading or exchanging capital with countries tainted by monetary or financial manipulation.  3. Economic self-sufficiency, since the society might have to be totally closed to trade for a while.  4. Military means to defend itself, since we know the global elites will want 'regime change.'

Actually our markets for goods and services are heavily 'regulated.

A society of free people can make their own decisions about who to trade with, and "economic self-sufficiency" through closing markets with government power is about as far from libertarian ideas as you can get.
  
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Don_G
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Re: The market is a many arms god
Reply #3 - May 1st, 2018 at 11:58am
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genepool wrote on May 1st, 2018 at 3:26am:
The market, is a many arms god, with many ways to pressure states to conform to it's norm.

1. Globalization makes job creation futile
2. Tax haven makes taxing corporation futile
3. Bitcoin will make currency manipulation futile
4. A market for citizenship/residency will further makes rent seeking from one voting bloc against another less attractive
5. A libertarian country will set a standard for all states to follow. Just one prosperous free invincible libertarian country will force every state to be libertarian or lost all their capital to that libertarian country.

I think it's best to pursue, for a while, some moderate libertarianism. We balance what libertarians want (freedom, protection from force and fraud), and interests of the "owners" of the state.

And then let the market decide. I can see a lot that can be accomplished.

So tax is not zero. However, the states will have to compete with one another to get smart people, working capital, and other productive entities to want to move there. I think whichever tax is more efficient, like land tax, will replace income taxes. Income tax punish productivity like nothing else. It's the worst tax ever.

This competition will "force" the states to be more libertarian.

Yes. Libertarian can use "force" too. They can make better product. That will force all their competitors to be out of business or lower price. And this is the kind of force that have been used again and again through out the world. This is what makes the world more and more libertarian.

Libertarian can also defense themselves. So a libertarian state may have strong defense. That forces other states from invading.

As long as a libertarian country is not attacked, their lower tax, and their freedom, can make even countries like North Korea, or Ethiopia, or Somalia, or Syria rich. You think it's going to be expensive to persuade rulers or citizens in those countries some better deal? May be not too much.

We've seen this with globalization. Jobs simply move to China. That is because job creation in US is an implicit welfare. Taxi driver don't normally make $3k a month. In Dubai, a free market society, taxi driver makes $250. On the other hand, an engineer easily make 10 times taxi driver in true capitalistic market in Dubai.

We've seen corporate taxes dropping. That's because IT businesses can simply incorporate in seyscheles with 0% income tax.

I thin there is a genuine value in free libertarian government. Anyone creating such free society will have people willing to pay to move in.

That's where the money comes in.


You're grasping at straws and forgetting the main reason why you people become libertarians in the first place. It's because the two major parties aren't acceptable choices.

But then you continue to sing the praises of the system that is screwing you.

The LP is not the answer and no libertarian is seriously suggesting it could ever be a government for a country any bigger than a football field.

The major parties are rightist parties and they have Americans convinced that a turn to the left and 'socially responsible government' would be akin to communism.

It's obvious why they hold to that threat. A government that has an interest in fair play for the people would destroy their wealth and their kingdoms they've created for themselves.

Take your time!
  
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Jeff
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Re: The market is a many arms god
Reply #4 - May 1st, 2018 at 8:18pm
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Quote:
The LP is not the answer...
This seems to be a mantra for you, sort of like "There are no monsters under the bed".

The fact that individual liberty frightens you into defensive postures and childish denials is probably evidence of a mental disorder...

Red would know for sure.
  
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BobK71
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Re: The market is a many arms god
Reply #5 - May 7th, 2018 at 8:32am
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For the global imperial elites, the problem of a free, libertarian country is that it's a threat to their system.

They will first use the free flow of capital and 'free trade' to addict the country to investment and demand from the West, and thus eventually force it to abandon state-free finance.  A form of this was what happened to Switzerland.

If that's not possible (say, the country closes itself to trade,) then military force or 'diplomacy' is necessary to open it to trade.  A form of this happened to China with the First Opium War, and a form of this was attempted on 19th-century US.  (When Britain supported the Confederacy's independence bid in the hope of getting it to join the global trading network, plus making trade isolationism in the US North unworkable.)

Trade-as-war is what most libertarians forget.  Fighting 'free trade' is no less important than physical defense, and for essentially the same reason.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The market is a many arms god
Reply #6 - May 7th, 2018 at 9:42am
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BobK71 wrote on May 7th, 2018 at 8:32am:
For the global imperial elites, the problem of a free, libertarian country is that it's a threat to their system.

They will first use the free flow of capital and 'free trade' to addict the country to investment and demand from the West, and thus eventually force it to abandon state-free finance.  A form of this was what happened to Switzerland.

You are correct in the first instance. No King or Tsar or Emperor liked the idea of America right from the beginning.

The next argument is garbled nonsense.

Economic liberty can only be restricted by governments. That includes finance and money.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The market is a many arms god
Reply #7 - May 7th, 2018 at 9:48am
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BobK71 wrote on May 7th, 2018 at 8:32am:
If that's not possible (say, the country closes itself to trade,) then military force or 'diplomacy' is necessary to open it to trade.  A form of this happened to China with the First Opium War, and a form of this was attempted on 19th-century US.  (When Britain supported the Confederacy's independence bid in the hope of getting it to join the global trading network, plus making trade isolationism in the US North unworkable.)

Trade-as-war is what most libertarians forget.  Fighting 'free trade' is no less important than physical defense, and for essentially the same reason.
Free individuals had nothing to do with closing China to trade or opening it to limited trade with the British Empire, and it was the remnants of the British Empire that wanted cheap Southern cotton for it's crony textile industry in England. That didn't happen for two primary reasons, the Union blockade was mostly effective and the people of England refused to support slavers in the South.

The empirical evidence shows that unilaterally opening your markets benefits everyone, and that trade wars hurt everyone (except specific "protected" crony businesses) and often/usually lead to shooting wars.


  
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Don_G
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Re: The market is a many arms god
Reply #8 - May 7th, 2018 at 12:59pm
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BobK71 wrote on May 7th, 2018 at 8:32am:
For the global imperial elites, the problem of a free, libertarian country is that it's a threat to their system.

They will first use the free flow of capital and 'free trade' to addict the country to investment and demand from the West, and thus eventually force it to abandon state-free finance.  A form of this was what happened to Switzerland.

If that's not possible (say, the country closes itself to trade,) then military force or 'diplomacy' is necessary to open it to trade.  A form of this happened to China with the First Opium War, and a form of this was attempted on 19th-century US.  (When Britain supported the Confederacy's independence bid in the hope of getting it to join the global trading network, plus making trade isolationism in the US North unworkable.)

Trade-as-war is what most libertarians forget.  Fighting 'free trade' is no less important than physical defense, and for essentially the same reason.


I think there's no way out of accepting free trade, as opposed to isolationist policies Bob.

But I also think that free trade can be about more than allowing big corporations making it all about maximum profit at the expense of other considerations. Maybe devoting a little thought to how that could be accomplished would be a worthwhile discussion.

Basically, US capitalism is entirely about profit for the shareholders. It has to be more than that because the wellbeing of the people also has to be considered.

There's no reason to fear socially responsible capitalism. I'm firmly convinced that it's the only solution to your problems. It seems to be either that or isolationist policy and that has to be ruled out.

So how do you give American workers a leg up in order to help them compete with China's ability to produce at a fraction of the cost? And soon do it all just as well?
  
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Don_G
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Re: The market is a many arms god
Reply #9 - May 7th, 2018 at 1:09pm
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genepool wrote on May 1st, 2018 at 3:26am:
The market, is a many arms god, with many ways to pressure states to conform to it's norm.
So tax is not zero. However, the states will have to compete with one another to get smart people, working capital, and other productive entities to want to move there. I think whichever tax is more efficient, like land tax, will replace income taxes. Income tax punish productivity like nothing else. It's the worst tax ever.


Land tax or any other tax cannot replace income taxation.

But there's no denying that you can say that income tax punishes productivity directly. So fine, you can take that to the bank.

But wait! All forms of taxation punish productivity. Land taxation being one! Work that concept out. And a tax on potatoes at the grocery store does too. What libertarians really want is to escape taxation completely. It's a great idea because everybody does!

If income taxation could be eliminated it would have been done sometime in the last 200 years.
  
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