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The Opposition
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Re: Liberals Will Always See Racism
Reply #340 - Jun 4th, 2018 at 11:04pm
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Jeff wrote on Jun 4th, 2018 at 6:54am:
Your claim is nonsense. Certainly there are some selfish ignorant children who call themselves libertarians, just as some selfish ignorant children say they are socialists. In most cases, none of them know anything about either system of political economy, being the ignorant children they are.


That's both a moronic assumption and completely counterfactual based on my experiences.

According to you, people who never learned to share are going to be attracted to the philosophy that says they have to share over the one that says they can, morally acceptably, watch someone die of starvation in the street?

Additionally I have not seen any socialists behave like I've seen libertarians behave. Most of you are pure dominance apes, incapable of seeing anyone else's perspective. If you ever do actually argue, you clip quotes to call people stupid and avoid having to address the issues.

Socialism isn't attracting this type of person because their whole philosophy, as destructive as it is, is based on everyone sharing, not the moral permissibility of no one sharing.

Jeff wrote on Jun 4th, 2018 at 6:54am:
OK, it isn't working... Some people are still selfish. If they want to be libertarians and advocate for individual liberty and individual Rights and individual responsibility and a limited government of law to protect those things, I say that's great, that's far better than having selfish people become socialists isn't it?


In some ways yes. It has some serious problems, though. The prevalence of people who never learned to share following libertarianism is keeping it a super-minority.

People don't join Neo-Nazi boards and get chased away by the fact that most of the people there are overgrown, selfish, spoiled, MINE MINE MINE mental two-year-olds who have been proven not to believe what they say. Again, look how people treat each other on Stormfront, then look at this forum.

Ironically the world would be better off if more people converted to libertarianism and none embraced racism, but ultimately an ideology is judged by those who hold it.

If you took all the Neo-Nazis, or socialists, and closed them off, they'd be happy and build some sort of society. The socialists would be very very poor, and a lot of them might starve, but they probably wouldn't mind so much as long as everyone was treated equally.

If you took libertarians and closed them off, the prevalence of mental MINE MINE MINE two-year-olds would prevent any society from being built.

So in this way, no, it's not better on every level to just have any allies you can get.
  

Making Sci-Fi great again since 2063.

Not taking Jeff seriously until he admits this is animal abuse (which he says should be illegal): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE-IT7_CaE4
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RubyHypatia
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Re: Liberals Will Always See Racism
Reply #341 - Jun 5th, 2018 at 6:17am
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The reason there are so few Libertarians can be explained by what Thomas Jefferson said, "The natural progress of things is for the government to gain ground and for liberty to yield."

Libertarians believe in charity, Don.  We just don't believe government should be charity.  When government becomes charity, then people feel ENTITLED to other people's money.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Liberals Will Always See Racism
Reply #342 - Jun 5th, 2018 at 8:38am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 4th, 2018 at 11:04pm:
According to you, people who never learned to share are going to be attracted to the philosophy that says they have to share over the one that says they can, morally acceptably, watch someone die of starvation in the street?

Theories of liberty include that idea that you are (and must be) responsible for yourself and your actions, and that you must respect the rights of others.

You have an idea that the moral precept of sharing can be taught, which is true, but whether it is accepted by individuals is up to them.

The idea of forced sharing is absurd. You can't claim that people being forced to share are acting morally.

Ignorant young people have regularly been attracted to Marxism and socialism because it promises a wonderful life for everyone. They imagine that a "socialist system" will provide everyone with safety and security and plenty, and doesn't that sound wonderful! Whether they realize it or not, they are attracted to the idea that they can remain pampered children in a society of equals all willing to share with them to provide for their every 'need'.

That is a very selfish attitude as well as being completely delusional.

In order to be able to share, you must first create something that you can share, and in order to do that, you must take responsibility for yourself and your actions, you must become an adult. Otherwise, you remain a child, happily "sharing" things that other people worked to create.

I stand by my assertion. Selfish children who don't want to grow up are attracted to socialism. People who want to grow up and hope to be able to help others are attracted to libertarianism.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Liberals Will Always See Racism
Reply #343 - Jun 5th, 2018 at 8:41am
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RubyHypatia wrote on Jun 5th, 2018 at 6:17am:
The reason there are so few Libertarians can be explained by what Thomas Jefferson said, "The natural progress of things is for the government to gain ground and for liberty to yield."

Libertarians believe in charity, Don.  We just don't believe government should be charity.  When government becomes charity, then people feel ENTITLED to other people's money.
I agree Ruby, good post.

There are however, lots more people who believe in small government and liberty than just those who identify as libertarians. Remove the 'legal' control over the electoral process granted to the TwoParties, and you will find out how many there really are.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Liberals Will Always See Racism
Reply #344 - Jun 5th, 2018 at 11:46am
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RubyHypatia wrote on Jun 5th, 2018 at 6:17am:
The reason there are so few Libertarians can be explained by what Thomas Jefferson said, "The natural progress of things is for the government to gain ground and for liberty to yield."


I see Ruby! Now you libertarians are going to have to prove Thomas wrong in order to ever become recognized. What good is a political party that nobody pays any attention to?

I suppose it might make libertarians feel good?

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Libertarians believe in charity, Don.  We just don't believe government should be charity.  When government becomes charity, then people feel ENTITLED to other people's money.


That can't be true Ruby but even if it was there's nobody paying any attention.

Socially responsible government provides for the people because charity can't be depended upon to do the job. See Craig Sickler or burnsred for the explanation why.

Socially responsible government provided health care for all the people. See Cuba's example of how a banana republic has provided health care for it's people that is rated just one place lower than US health care.

It's an example of a communist government that cares about the people! Craig Sickler describes your country as crony capitalist and that's part of the reason why the people are not taken care of by government. That's bad government Ruby. All Americans on this board agree!
(well, maybe not you?)

On topic, racism is a factor that contributes to bad government.
  
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RubyHypatia
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Re: Liberals Will Always See Racism
Reply #345 - Jun 5th, 2018 at 5:20pm
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John Stossel questions Michael Moore on Cuban Health Care
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6ZH1ps20WA
  
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Jeff
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Re: Liberals Will Always See Racism
Reply #346 - Jun 5th, 2018 at 6:35pm
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RubyHypatia wrote on Jun 5th, 2018 at 5:20pm:
John Stossel questions Michael Moore on Cuban Health Care
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6ZH1ps20WA
I liked the part where Moore said he was moving to Cuba!

How many times has he said that now?

Edit: I don't think Michael Moore was very effective when he was fresh and new...

Now, he's like Bernie. Cry
  
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Don_G
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Re: Liberals Will Always See Racism
Reply #347 - Jun 5th, 2018 at 6:40pm
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RubyHypatia wrote on Jun 5th, 2018 at 5:20pm:
John Stossel questions Michael Moore on Cuban Health Care
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6ZH1ps20WA
Ruby, first of all let's get something straight. Your health care is rated the worst of all the modern first world countries. That's an esbablished given!

The World Health Organization last rated Cuba as one position down from the US. That was before Obamacare so Cuba could actually be rated better now because of so many more Americans without health care now. That should be an embarrassement right there for Americans. Cuba is a poor banana republic that is still suffering under US dirty tricks and cruel sanctions.

If I asked you if you would like to hear that Cuba has good health care, I'm sure you would say no. That shows your mean and evil streak right there.

The WHO didn't lie Ruby. There are several factors that make US health care better than Cuba's. But the WHO found that providing good quality health care to all the people brought Cuba's health care up to dangerously close to surpassing the US.

If you want to debate health care then let's do it. If you want to compare Cuba's with the US then let's do that too.

But please Ruby, bring yourself up to speed at least on how the WHO made their determinations. Otherwise you're acting like a spoiled brat skank.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Liberals Will Always See Racism
Reply #348 - Jun 5th, 2018 at 6:46pm
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Ruby, first of all let's get something straight. Your health care is rated the worst of all the modern first world countries. That's an esbablished given!


What else could you expect when government has been screwing around with the market for medical service for more than 75 years?

You thought they would make it work well?

From what I can see right now, Congress is planning to make it even worse.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Liberals Will Always See Racism
Reply #349 - Jun 5th, 2018 at 7:03pm
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Jeff wrote on Jun 5th, 2018 at 6:46pm:
What else could you expect when government has been screwing around with the market for medical service for more than 75 years?

I'm able to accept that as being part of your case against your government. It's unfortunate that Ruby hasn't matured to the point at which she is condemning your government.

[quote]You thought they would make it work well?


No! For whatever reason they have made it work very badly. We may differ somewhat on the reasons why but that's not important right now.

Let's not spoil a good day with minor points that don't matter all that much.

Quote:
From what I can see right now, Congress is planning to make it even worse.


I don't know how but I'm always interested in learning how.

As for Ruby, maybe she will follow along with her finger and learn from what you're saying.

This is about the umteenth smackdown for Ruby so maybe she'll just leave. I hope not!
  
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