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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Natural monopolies have existed? (Read 273 times)
Don_G
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Re: Natural monopolies have existed?
Reply #20 - May 7th, 2018 at 11:08pm
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The Opposition wrote on May 7th, 2018 at 10:17pm:
Libertarians define their philosophy so that monopolies in a free market are impossible.

Therefore the railroad must have either not been a monopoly, or must have been assisted to come about by government interference.


You're getting pretty good at pointing out the hypocrisy of the pseudo-libertarians.

Why do you sometimes pretend to be one? Or for that matter, why does anybody on this forum except the Chief pretend?
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Natural monopolies have existed?
Reply #21 - May 7th, 2018 at 11:41pm
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The Opposition wrote on May 7th, 2018 at 10:17pm:
Libertarians define their philosophy so that monopolies in a free market are impossible.

Therefore the railroad must have either not been a monopoly, or must have been assisted to come about by government interference.

The railroad monopoly was very real.  Companies with enough capital to establish the infrastructure were the only players. 

Eventually, government threw their hat in the ring and "short-line" subsidies became fairly commonplace. Government also granted "right-of-way" to private Rail companies - displacing ranchers and farmers with eminent domain laws..  These properties were then given to the Rail companies who later sold them for profit.   Angry

So who's really to blame?  The Rail companies who paid their investors dividends on the sale of these "gift" properties, or the dumb-ass government who gave it to them in the first place?

I say the government.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Natural monopolies have existed?
Reply #22 - May 7th, 2018 at 11:50pm
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SkyChief wrote on May 7th, 2018 at 11:41pm:
The railroad monopoly was very real.  Companies with enough capital to establish the infrastructure were the only players. 

Eventually, government threw their hat in the ring and "short-line" subsidies became fairly commonplace. Government also granted "right-of-way" to private Rail companies - displacing ranchers and farmers with eminent domain laws..  These properties were given to the Rail companies who later sold them for profit.

So who's to blame?  The Rail companies who paid dividends on the sale of these "gift" properties, or the dumb-ass government who gave it to them in the first place?

I say the government.


I'm familiar with the gov granting railroad land in Canada too and I would say that it was in fair exchange for opening up the country's transportation needs in a time when there was no alternative.

And fwiw, the E+N on Vancouver Island is still obliged to run train service as part of the deal.

Libertarians never think things through before their knees start jerking and they go off with pure bullshit nonsense. What is it that 'you' are so pissed off about, other than the complete fkn mess your government is in now?
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Natural monopolies have existed?
Reply #23 - May 8th, 2018 at 12:00am
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SkyChief wrote on May 7th, 2018 at 11:41pm:
The railroad monopoly was very real.


Yet look at the behaviour of the people insisting there was not an effective monopoly.

It's definitional. Libertarians define the world in such a way that there can't have been a naturally occurring monopoly.

SkyChief wrote on May 7th, 2018 at 11:41pm:
Companies with enough capital to establish the infrastructure were the only players. 

Eventually, government threw their hat in the ring and "short-line" subsidies became fairly commonplace. Government also granted "right-of-way" to private Rail companies.  These properties were given to the Rail companies who later sold them for profit.

So who's to blame?  The Rail companies who paid dividends on the sale of these "gift" properties, or the dumb-ass government who gave it to them in the first place?

I say the government.


Yes. Again, it's definitional. If private lobbying for use of government power is defined as right, and the government officials using it is defined as wrong, then it is so.
  

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SkyChief
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Re: Natural monopolies have existed?
Reply #24 - May 8th, 2018 at 12:12am
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Don_G wrote on May 7th, 2018 at 11:50pm:
What is it that 'you' are so pissed off about, other than the complete fkn mess your government is in now?

I regret that our government no longer represents its constituents.  Government has become too powerful.  It needs to be down-sized.  That is the goal of libertarians - to limit the powers of government.

  
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Don_G
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Re: Natural monopolies have existed?
Reply #25 - May 8th, 2018 at 12:21am
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SkyChief wrote on May 8th, 2018 at 12:12am:
I regret that our government no longer represents its constituents.  Government has become too powerful.  It needs to be down-sized.  That is the goal of libertarians - to limit the powers of government.



It's fair to say that you as a libertarian are trying to help government gerrymander the state of Californis in order to turn it red.

You're not smart enough to hide the hypocrisy and it becomes obvious when you say you're trying to make government smaller.
  
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Billie
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Re: Natural monopolies have existed?
Reply #26 - May 8th, 2018 at 8:09am
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SkyChief wrote on May 7th, 2018 at 11:41pm:
The railroad monopoly was very real.  Companies with enough capital to establish the infrastructure were the only players. 

Golly Chief, people formed new companies and raised capital on the free market for capital. Sometimes they failed, but sometimes they started new railroads and made money.
  
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Billie
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Re: Natural monopolies have existed?
Reply #27 - May 8th, 2018 at 8:14am
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The Opposition wrote on May 8th, 2018 at 12:00am:
It's definitional. Libertarians define the world in such a way that there can't have been a naturally occurring monopoly.


It's not definitional, it's a fact of economics. In the face of free competition, monopolies can't exist.

Where the definitional nonsense comes in is when you say "natural monopoly", which is a legal term of art invented by governments that wanted to grant monopolies to businesses who would by definition be crony businesses.

Name something you think is a "natural monopoly". (BTW, a "naturally occurring monopoly" would be OK too.)
  
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Billie
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Re: Natural monopolies have existed?
Reply #28 - May 8th, 2018 at 8:20am
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The Opposition wrote on May 8th, 2018 at 12:00am:
Yes. Again, it's definitional. If private lobbying for use of government power is defined as right, and the government officials using it is defined as wrong, then it is so.
General theories of Liberty say that people are free to petition their government, but the U.S. Constitution is designed so that the government has no power to grant favors to individuals or individual businesses. (The King did that, and the Framers of the Constitution wanted to prevent their new government from having Kingly powers).

It is actually illegal for our government to give tax revenues to individuals or individual businesses; It is beyond their granted powers and wrong in the eyes of the law because it treats individuals differently under the law.
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: Natural monopolies have existed?
Reply #29 - May 8th, 2018 at 9:49am
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Billie wrote on May 8th, 2018 at 8:20am:
General theories of Liberty say that people are free to petition their government, but the U.S. Constitution is designed so that the government has no power to grant favors to individuals or individual businesses. (The King did that, and the Framers of the Constitution wanted to prevent their new government from having Kingly powers).

It is actually illegal for our government to give tax revenues to individuals or individual businesses; It is beyond their granted powers and wrong in the eyes of the law because it treats individuals differently under the law.


That's laughable.  Are you being ironic again?

The government shells out money to select individuals as fast as it can steal it, borrow it, and print it.  It gives money and favors to individuals, corporations, professional organizations, unions, voting blocks and other groups of individuals in exchange for hoped-for votes and other election support to individual members of the government. 

The constitution doesn't lift a finger to stop it.  The constitution provides for no enforcement mechanism for its supposed restrictions on government.  The judicial branch - "one among equals" - awarded itself the power of enforcement of the constitution and immediately began screwing that up.

No one should have been surprised that a document which speaks in ringing words about protecting freedom while also protecting the institution of slavery would soon be shown to be unworkable.

  

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