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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Venezuela - A Dismal Socialist Failure (Read 1189 times)
Jeff
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Re: Venezuela - A Dismal Socialist Failure
Reply #50 - May 10th, 2018 at 5:04pm
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SkyChief wrote on May 10th, 2018 at 2:58pm:
Therefore the US must be at risk of becoming a "socialist system", too?

We have a central bank.
It started in the Progressive Era Chief, and it's never let up.

America and the ideas of economic liberty and individual Liberty must be destroyed for "the Common Good". That has been the theory since the beginning of the Progressive Era, even when they refused to articulate it and tried to be evasive and clever... Just as they try to be now.

To the point, governments can't control money and finance and the economy in general without a Central Bank authorized to issue fiat money and control interest rates and the supply of money.

The creation of a "socialist system" requires that government take control of the economy and make it "fair".

It never works out as they claim it will. Instead, it devolves into crony capitalism (or evolves if you start with "communism").

If you think crony capitalism is "fair", tell me why.

Donat could probably answer this best, him being such an expert advocate of crony capitalism. Grin

Edit: Am I being racist by dissing Donat, who I think is a French Canadian Gypsy logger?

I am sort of prejudiced against the French feeling superior to everyone else, but I've mostly met only French Canadian loggers who weren't like that...

Neither were other Canadians I've met.

Is it only Donat that's an asshole?


  
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The Opposition
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Re: Venezuela - A Dismal Socialist Failure
Reply #51 - May 11th, 2018 at 12:42am
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SkyChief wrote on May 10th, 2018 at 11:55am:
"That is, a truly “pure” socialist experience — as Marx presumably wanted — has always been tainted by the presence of bourgeois ideas or lingering capitalistic habits present in the state apparatus."

I agree with this, actually..

It is basically the premise for my argument that "pure" libertarianism can't work in a large society.  It will become tainted by lingering socialist habits - eventually some moonbat will come along and propose taxation (distribution of wealth).  He will worm his way into government, and the whole thing comes crashing down.


You're absolutely correct on every level.

Without government, the power and force of numbers would fill this role, and drive the needy majority (which there will always be) to use force against the wealthy minority.

With government, a representative can manipulate this same desire into votes.

Libertarianism and communism both require people to play by the rules under, ultimately, the honour system. With a population that does this inherently, you could have ANY system and have it work well. With a cheater population where even 10% or 1% is Hell-bent on bending, breaking, and exploiting the rules, no system will work well.

I'm going to make a topic about this.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: Venezuela - A Dismal Socialist Failure
Reply #52 - May 11th, 2018 at 1:25am
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The Opposition wrote on May 11th, 2018 at 12:42am:
Without government, the power and force of numbers would fill this role, and drive the needy majority (which there will always be) to use force against the wealthy minority.
Smiley

The Opposition wrote on May 11th, 2018 at 12:42am:
With a population that  [plays by the rules] inherently, you could have ANY system and have it work well.

It's an inconvenient (and embarrassing) truth.

It's probably safe to say that ALL systems of government can work just fine on the micro level... even socialism... *cough*

The Opposition wrote on May 11th, 2018 at 12:42am:
I'm going to make a topic about this.
Smiley
  
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Jeff
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Re: Venezuela - A Dismal Socialist Failure
Reply #53 - May 11th, 2018 at 8:44am
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The Opposition wrote on May 11th, 2018 at 12:42am:
With a cheater population where even 10% or 1% is Hell-bent on bending, breaking, and exploiting the rules, no system will work well.

C'mon lizard, you know there are always going to be thieves and violent amoral people, rule breakers and cheaters.

You can't use that fact to justify your statement that therefore "no system will work well".

There is a well known system of equally administered law that works very well in comparison to "no system" or to arbitrary rule by tyrants.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Venezuela - A Dismal Socialist Failure
Reply #54 - May 11th, 2018 at 8:52am
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SkyChief wrote on May 11th, 2018 at 1:25am:
It's probably safe to say that ALL systems of government can work just fine on the micro level... even socialism... *cough*

Libertarianism isn't a system of government. Using libertarian theories as a basis, a good government can be designed, but libertarians don't imagine that a good government will result in the creation of perfect NAP observing libertarians.

Socialism is a system of government the purpose of which is to create a completely new system of economics and a completely new society at which time it's expected that everyone on earth will become a pure communist and government will disappear.

Even on the very smallest scale, a "socialist" government will never produce a "system" that will result in the production of pure communists.

Pure communists have banded together from time to time to live communally, but give up when they run out of money and food and people start bitching about who isn't pulling their weight.


  
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Don_G
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Re: Venezuela - A Dismal Socialist Failure
Reply #55 - May 11th, 2018 at 1:40pm
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Jeff wrote on May 11th, 2018 at 8:52am:
Libertarianism isn't a system of government. Using libertarian theories as a basis, a good government can be designed, but libertarians don't imagine that a good government will result in the creation of perfect NAP observing libertarians.

Socialism is a system of government the purpose of which is to create a completely new system of economics and a completely new society at which time it's expected that everyone on earth will become a pure communist and government will disappear.

Even on the very smallest scale, a "socialist" government will never produce a "system" that will result in the production of pure communists.

Pure communists have banded together from time to time to live communally, but give up when they run out of money and food and people start bitching about who isn't pulling their weight.




It almost sounds like you are inviting a serious conversation!

I think capitalism is the answer but it's a sort of capitalism that adopts good ideas from several other forms of government. Libertarian and socialism would be included.

I wouldn't discount any of the logical ideas I've heard from libertarians. But I would reject a form of government that didn't include 'socially responsibility' toward all the people.

When anybody is ready?
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Venezuela - A Dismal Socialist Failure
Reply #56 - May 11th, 2018 at 2:17pm
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But I would reject a form of government that didn't include 'socially responsibility' toward all the people.



Just to be clear, 'socially responsibility' is code for the forced distribution of wealth, right?
  
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Don_G
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Re: Venezuela - A Dismal Socialist Failure
Reply #57 - May 11th, 2018 at 2:24pm
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SkyChief wrote on May 11th, 2018 at 2:17pm:
Just to be clear, 'socially responsibility' is code for the forced distribution of wealth, right?


In your terms, you would essentially be right. But I don't see it that way at all. If you were able to take a sensible and moderated approach to the issue then we could talk about it.

But I don't think you could back off and moderate your libertarian agenda enough to even start. You can try if you like.

I would stick to promoting socially responsible government in a way that would be somewhat more appropriate for a libertarian. At least for a start.

I don't think we would be able to get very far with it but who knows.

You would be risking a lot if you exposed your agenda to the light of day. I don't think I would be risking anything.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Venezuela - A Dismal Socialist Failure
Reply #58 - May 11th, 2018 at 2:59pm
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I would stick to promoting socially responsible government in a way that would be somewhat more appropriate for a libertarian. At least for a start.

I would contend that anyone who supports the government forcibly taking wealth from one group of people, and distributing the stolen wealth among another group of people (socially responsible government) is NOT libertarian.

That doesn't mean that a person who supports distribution of wealth can't embrace some libertarian principles.  But he/she is most certainly NOT libertarian.  Even if he/she chooses to self-identify as one.

No real libertarian justifies government taking an individuals wealth/property by force.

No real libertarian can justify income tax.  Some individuals on this forum support income tax and consider themself a libertarian.

They're only fooling themselves.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Venezuela - A Dismal Socialist Failure
Reply #59 - May 11th, 2018 at 4:05pm
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It almost sounds like you are inviting a serious conversation!
When I want to converse with you, I will. For us to have a conversation means we have to be responsive to the points raised and being discussed. It's a rule. You will be disqualified and lose if you refuse to participate in the discussion.

Don't blame me, it was a rule before I was born.
  
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