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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Venezuela - A Dismal Socialist Failure (Read 12178 times)
Jeff
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Re: Venezuela - A Dismal Socialist Failure
Reply #560 - Jun 10th, 2019 at 2:37pm
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ahhell wrote on Jun 10th, 2019 at 12:05pm:
Likely driven by your greater knowledge of Western history vs Eastern. 
I suppose you could say that China wasn't particularly expansionist as they've basically had the same conception of what China was for the last 3000 years, they mostly didn't care much what the folks who occupied those areas thought on the matter.  Most recently, the South China Sea, Tibet, and Western China stand as examples of that.  Not to mention, they've also had a long history of bullying their non-Chinese neighbors. 

Prior to the English the largest Indian Empire was the Buddhist Empire of Ashoka, attained through conquest, then the Buddhists were driven out of India by the Hindus. 

The buddhist warrior monks of Japan were so violent and prone to revolt they were eventually suppressed by the Shoguns.  Not to mention that the Shinto/Buddhist Japanese eventually conquered the non Japanese Ainu to the North and the Ryukan Kingdom to the South, and lets not forget Japans WWII history.

South East Asian History has also been a long history of expansion by set of rulers from Viet Nam, or Cambodia, or Thailand that would later recede or collapse, only to be conquered by another from one of the other areas.

Then there's the empires of conquest in the Americas.  The Aztec, Maya, and Inca were very aggressive.

Rome, pre-Islamic Mesopotamia, the Vikings, Carthage, etc. 

Pretty much every group of folks to ever leave the steppes were violent conquerors of settled people.  The expansion and conquests by these pagans drove history up until the late middle ages.

Lets not forget, that even your example of the Abrahamic faiths, the aggression and expansionism of Israel and Judiah pail in comparison to pretty much everyone else around them at the time.


Speaking of South East Asia, if you think the US was bad, what about when the Chinese invaded Vietnam after we left and when the Vietnamese invaded Cambodia?  Granted, the Vietnamese were entirely justified and put down one of the worst most violent regimes in the world.  Its probably only coincidental that the Kmer Rouge were led by a bunch of former buddhist monks. 
+1. Don't forget the Persians and Macedonians! How about the Soviet Empire?
  
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ahhell
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Re: Venezuela - A Dismal Socialist Failure
Reply #561 - Jun 10th, 2019 at 3:02pm
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Jeff wrote on Jun 10th, 2019 at 2:37pm:
+1. Don't forget the Persians and Macedonians! How about the Soviet Empire?

I figured Persians were included with Mesopatamia, on the other hand they were really just steppes horsemen that conquered the land between the rivers. 

You could blame the soviet aggression on the Russian cultural legacy that included Christianity so I figured I'd leave them out on purpose.

Good point about the Macedonians though, you could include the Athenians and Spartans too, they also had fairly substantial empires.  Then there's the Sudanese invaders who conquered Eqypt and the Eqyptians that conquered Egypt before them.   

Did I mention the Vikings?  They did most of their damage as pagans too.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Venezuela - A Dismal Socialist Failure
Reply #562 - Jun 10th, 2019 at 4:47pm
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ahhell wrote on Jun 10th, 2019 at 3:02pm:
I figured Persians were included with Mesopatamia, on the other hand they were really just steppes horsemen that conquered the land between the rivers. 

You could blame the soviet aggression on the Russian cultural legacy that included Christianity so I figured I'd leave them out on purpose.

Good point about the Macedonians though, you could include the Athenians and Spartans too, they also had fairly substantial empires.  Then there's the Sudanese invaders who conquered Eqypt and the Eqyptians that conquered Egypt before them.   

Did I mention the Vikings?  They did most of their damage as pagans too. 
The Assyrians too.. The list is long and bloody, though some were worse than others. There were some fairly large empires in Africa too, predating the European empire builders, and some that I think were contemporaneous.

Since the Soviet Union was officially atheist, I think they can be safely included.
  
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kaz
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Re: Venezuela - A Dismal Socialist Failure
Reply #563 - Jun 10th, 2019 at 4:57pm
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ahhell wrote on Jun 10th, 2019 at 12:05pm:
Likely driven by your greater knowledge of Western history vs Eastern. 
I suppose you could say that China wasn't particularly expansionist as they've basically had the same conception of what China was for the last 3000 years, they mostly didn't care much what the folks who occupied those areas thought on the matter.  Most recently, the South China Sea, Tibet, and Western China stand as examples of that.  Not to mention, they've also had a long history of bullying their non-Chinese neighbors. 

Prior to the English the largest Indian Empire was the Buddhist Empire of Ashoka, attained through conquest, then the Buddhists were driven out of India by the Hindus. 

The buddhist warrior monks of Japan were so violent and prone to revolt they were eventually suppressed by the Shoguns.  Not to mention that the Shinto/Buddhist Japanese eventually conquered the non Japanese Ainu to the North and the Ryukan Kingdom to the South, and lets not forget Japans WWII history.

South East Asian History has also been a long history of expansion by set of rulers from Viet Nam, or Cambodia, or Thailand that would later recede or collapse, only to be conquered by another from one of the other areas.

Then there's the empires of conquest in the Americas.  The Aztec, Maya, and Inca were very aggressive.

Rome, pre-Islamic Mesopotamia, the Vikings, Carthage, etc. 

Pretty much every group of folks to ever leave the steppes were violent conquerors of settled people.  The expansion and conquests by these pagans drove history up until the late middle ages.

Lets not forget, that even your example of the Abrahamic faiths, the aggression and expansionism of Israel and Judiah pail in comparison to pretty much everyone else around them at the time.


Speaking of South East Asia, if you think the US was bad, what about when the Chinese invaded Vietnam after we left and when the Vietnamese invaded Cambodia?  Granted, the Vietnamese were entirely justified and put down one of the worst most violent regimes in the world.  Its probably only coincidental that the Kmer Rouge were led by a bunch of former buddhist monks. 


Nice post
  

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Tom Palven
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Re: Venezuela - A Dismal Socialist Failure
Reply #564 - Jun 11th, 2019 at 5:12am
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ahhell wrote on Jun 10th, 2019 at 12:05pm:
Likely driven by your greater knowledge of Western history vs Eastern. 
I suppose you could say that China wasn't particularly expansionist as they've basically had the same conception of what China was for the last 3000 years, they mostly didn't care much what the folks who occupied those areas thought on the matter.  Most recently, the South China Sea, Tibet, and Western China stand as examples of that.  Not to mention, they've also had a long history of bullying their non-Chinese neighbors. 

Prior to the English the largest Indian Empire was the Buddhist Empire of Ashoka, attained through conquest, then the Buddhists were driven out of India by the Hindus. 

The buddhist warrior monks of Japan were so violent and prone to revolt they were eventually suppressed by the Shoguns.  Not to mention that the Shinto/Buddhist Japanese eventually conquered the non Japanese Ainu to the North and the Ryukan Kingdom to the South, and lets not forget Japans WWII history.

South East Asian History has also been a long history of expansion by set of rulers from Viet Nam, or Cambodia, or Thailand that would later recede or collapse, only to be conquered by another from one of the other areas.

Then there's the empires of conquest in the Americas.  The Aztec, Maya, and Inca were very aggressive.

Rome, pre-Islamic Mesopotamia, the Vikings, Carthage, etc. 

Pretty much every group of folks to ever leave the steppes were violent conquerors of settled people.  The expansion and conquests by these pagans drove history up until the late middle ages.

Lets not forget, that even your example of the Abrahamic faiths, the aggression and expansionism of Israel and Judiah pail in comparison to pretty much everyone else around them at the time.


Speaking of South East Asia, if you think the US was bad, what about when the Chinese invaded Vietnam after we left and when the Vietnamese invaded Cambodia?  Granted, the Vietnamese were entirely justified and put down one of the worst most violent regimes in the world.  Its probably only coincidental that the Kmer Rouge were led by a bunch of former buddhist monks. 


So, I guess that your point is that the Buddhist religion promotes or condones aggression and intolerance just as much as the Judeo-Christi-Islamic sects do.

We simply have a difference of opinion.
  
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kaz
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Re: Venezuela - A Dismal Socialist Failure
Reply #565 - Jun 11th, 2019 at 6:51am
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Tom Palven wrote on Jun 11th, 2019 at 5:12am:
So, I guess that your point is that the Buddhist religion promotes or condones aggression and intolerance just as much as the Judeo-Christi-Islamic sects do.

We simply have a difference of opinion.


Yes, but yours is politically motivated.

The Huns, the Mongolians, the Norse, the Japanese, Mao. And today, my God, extremist Muslim terrorism. 

Yeah, it's just the Jews and the Christians.  Sure, Sport ...
  

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Jeff
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Re: Venezuela - A Dismal Socialist Failure
Reply #566 - Jun 11th, 2019 at 7:22am
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Maybe we should start a new thread "South Africa - A Dismal Socialist Failure" -

http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2019/06/socialism-leaves-south-africa-in-dark.ht...
  
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Tom Palven
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Re: Venezuela - A Dismal Socialist Failure
Reply #567 - Jun 11th, 2019 at 10:10am
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kaz wrote on Jun 11th, 2019 at 6:51am:
Yeah, it's just the Jews and the Christians.  Sure, Sport ...



The Muslims are included , too. 

All Judeo-Christi-Islamic sects are included in he Old Testament-based  Abrahamic religions.
https://www.biblehub.com/1_samuel/18-27.htm

The difference in the Christian sects are that they also believe the kinder, gentler,  New Testament where God doesn't merely smite you or turn you into a pillar of salt. 

In the New Testament you break the rules and you get to burn in a fiery furnace forever.

(I just threw the link in as a gratuitous insult, sport.)


  
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kaz
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Re: Venezuela - A Dismal Socialist Failure
Reply #568 - Jun 11th, 2019 at 10:26am
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Tom Palven wrote on Jun 11th, 2019 at 10:10am:
The Muslims are included , too. 

All Judeo-Christi-Islamic sects are included in he Old Testament-based  Abrahamic religions.
https://www.biblehub.com/1_samuel/18-27.htm

The difference in the Christian sects are that they also believe the kinder, gentler,  New Testament where God doesn't merely smite you or turn you into a pillar of salt. 

In the New Testament you break the rules and you get to burn in a fiery furnace forever.

(I just threw the link in as a gratuitous insult, sport.)




LOL, I love when people admit you have nothing by repeating my lines back to me.

You look at the world through such a bigoted view that you only see what you want to see.  The Jews have hardly been a warlike people, they've been the heavy brunt of oppression.  The Christians have a bloody past, but now little world atrocities are committed by Christians.  It's the Muslims slaughtering people in that line.

But that you ignore the bloody history of the world can only be explained by overt bias trying to justify your contrived political points.

Just like you do in your failure to even know what neocon means while you spread the word all over the Internet.  You just like the way the word "neocon" sounds.  To you it just means someone you don't like.  So Christians and Jews are neocons, huh?
  

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The Opposition
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Re: Venezuela - A Dismal Socialist Failure
Reply #569 - Jun 11th, 2019 at 10:29am
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Most people will be violent if they are threatened.

Insofar as religion provides cohesion, it enhances the capacity for violence. Insofar as it creates a group - a tribe - it can cause tribalism.

Even modern day Buddhists can be oppressive toward groups that they think threaten them and their way of life.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_in_Myanmar
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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