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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Why be Surprised that Left Media and Statist Politicians Abuse Women? (Read 650 times)
Snarky Sack
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Re: Why be Surprised that Left Media and Statist Politicians Abuse Women?
Reply #10 - May 9th, 2018 at 12:57pm
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JW wrote on May 9th, 2018 at 10:10am:
Glad you are listening. 

Most taxation is actually user fees. 

Consider a Condo association in a place Billie would LIKE to live.  They charge a huge fee, maintain a gated community, do yard care, and impose rules about what you can put on your porch.  People pay it willingly because they want the quality of life.  So this is a user fee.

Now consider the run down dump where Billie really lives.  They charge a huge fee, maintain water and sewer services and access to companies that provide electricity and internet service.  They impose law and order, and allow Billie to call the cops whenever someone he doesn't like, who is not on his property, bothers him.

The portion of taxes that pay for services that directly benefit YOU are user fees and not theft.  The portion of taxes to pay for services that benefit others, like schools to educate the miscreants next door, also benefit you when the miscreants get a job and move away rather than stealing your stuff. 

If you do not choose to pay your user fees, you can move to a community that does not have condo fees or does not have taxes.  Many options are available here.  If you don't like income tax, then arrane your income in such a way so it is not taxed.  Trump did a great job of this using property offsets. 

Expecting services for free, like free health care, or free access to courts, electricity, streets or a property authority who allows you to "own" land that was stolen is theft.  Those services are paid by user fees, often in the form of taxes.  The user fee portion of taxes is not theft.


It's all theft unless it's voluntary. 

Imagine if I went around forcing people to give me five five dollars to shine their shoes, whether the wanted them shined or not.  Can I say, "It isn't theft, because you need you shoes shined, I provided that service and I provided it at lower rates than the private sector could have!"  How is that not theft?  What if I said, "I only shine business shoes and cowboy boots.  You don't want to pay for shoe shines, just get some sandals or nylon jogging shoes.  What . . . do you expect services for free, you thief?"

If I did that, it would be theft.  Even if I uttered the magic words, "I'm from the government and I'm here to help."
  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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Re: Why be Surprised that Left Media and Statist Politicians Abuse Women?
Reply #11 - May 9th, 2018 at 1:01pm
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The Opposition wrote on May 9th, 2018 at 12:51am:
Leftists don't have to repress their biased garbage because nobody's attacking them for it.

And you can see the evidence of this every time Don opens his fat mouth.

Can't un-ring this bell.   Salute.  Smiley
  
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Don_G
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Re: Why be Surprised that Left Media and Statist Politicians Abuse Women?
Reply #12 - May 9th, 2018 at 1:05pm
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JW, burnsred has a good point with his shoeshine business! Would America's government support him forcing people into getting their shoes shined?

I think that maybe that's as close to reality the libertarian argument has ever been developed on this forum?
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Why be Surprised that Left Media and Statist Politicians Abuse Women?
Reply #13 - May 9th, 2018 at 11:22pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on May 9th, 2018 at 12:57pm:
It's all theft unless it's voluntary. 

Imagine if I went around forcing people to give me five five dollars to shine their shoes, whether the wanted them shined or not.  Can I say, "It isn't theft, because you need you shoes shined, I provided that service and I provided it at lower rates than the private sector could have!"  How is that not theft?  What if I said, "I only shine business shoes and cowboy boots.  You don't want to pay for shoe shines, just get some sandals or nylon jogging shoes.  What . . . do you expect services for free, you thief?"

If I did that, it would be theft.  Even if I uttered the magic words, "I'm from the government and I'm here to help."


This is a good point but I wonder if the basic services like police were already agreed to.

I'm just saying this for the purposes of argument. I actually agree with you.

The way in which a property owner agrees to HOA impositions is through ceding a portion of his property voluntarily to the HOA.

So, when America was founded, would all the property owners have made that concession?

Here's the thing: Libertarianism wasn't a thing back then. The assumption was that a good government at least, was legitimate.

The property owners at America's founding had no idea the government being founded was fundamentally illegitimate and if they wanted to live under those rules, and their children to as well, they needed to voluntarily cede portions of their property to the HOA, so the HOA could legitimately enforce those rules.

Is this a case that government as described in the Constitution is legitimate?

I say no. They may not have realised they had to make it an HOA, but too bad. They didn't.

Government remains illegitimate.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Why be Surprised that Left Media and Statist Politicians Abuse Women?
Reply #14 - May 10th, 2018 at 8:58am
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Snarky Sack wrote on May 9th, 2018 at 12:57pm:
It's all theft unless it's voluntary. 

File a complaint then... no wait, without taxation, there won't be anyone you can report an alleged theft to will there? You'll just have to take it in your own hands then.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Why be Surprised that Left Media and Statist Politicians Abuse Women?
Reply #15 - May 10th, 2018 at 9:02am
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The Opposition wrote on May 9th, 2018 at 11:22pm:
This is a good point but I wonder if the basic services like police were already agreed to.

Police and courts and jails probably just dropped from the sky, like religions.

Once the police arrived, they started shooting people who wouldn't pay taxes. Once the religions arrived, they started brainwashing children into being Believers.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Why be Surprised that Left Media and Statist Politicians Abuse Women?
Reply #16 - May 10th, 2018 at 9:10am
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The Opposition wrote on May 9th, 2018 at 11:22pm:
So, when America was founded, would all the property owners have made that concession?

Here's the thing: Libertarianism wasn't a thing back then. The assumption was that a good government at least, was legitimate.

Some property owners fled to Canada after the Revolutionary War, and had their property seized.

The colonies, which became states, already had police and courts and jails paid for with taxes, and they kept them.

The assumption of the classical liberals who created our national government was that no government was legitimate unless it existed to provide important (but limited) services to everyone, among those the protection of everyone's life, Liberty and property.

Modern libertarians agree, except for the lunatic anarchist fringe who are not rational enough to understand that anarchy won't bring individual liberty without having a world full of perfect pure libertarians first.

The same problem exists for "an-caps" as exists for communists; For either to produce anything good, a world full of perfect people is required.

Edit: I should probably add Caliphate Dreamers, who are convinced that a world full of nothing but good followers of Pure Islam will be Paradise on Earth!
  
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Jeff
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Re: Why be Surprised that Left Media and Statist Politicians Abuse Women?
Reply #17 - May 10th, 2018 at 9:22am
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Snarky Sack wrote on May 8th, 2018 at 9:58am:
Once we accept that it is moral to use force or at least that there are greater goods in whose service we can ignore the immorality of force, there is no logical place at which to draw the line. 
Of course there is. The logical thing to do is to grant governments the limited use of force to accomplish specific moral purposes.

Like catching and punishing thieves and murderers and kidnappers, helping to make the high seas safe from pirates,  keeping our country safe from foreign invasion and conquest...
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Why be Surprised that Left Media and Statist Politicians Abuse Women?
Reply #18 - May 10th, 2018 at 10:11am
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Jeff wrote on May 10th, 2018 at 9:22am:
Of course there is. The logical thing to do is to grant governments the limited use of force to accomplish specific moral purposes.

Like catching and punishing thieves and murderers and kidnappers, helping to make the high seas safe from pirates,  keeping our country safe from foreign invasion and conquest...


Oh, sure!  Let them do all  that.  Just don't grant them the right to steal from honest folk to fund such activities.  Once we take away their "right" to steal, they will have no trouble exploring ways to use voluntary funding. 

Giving group A the right to steal from me with the unenforceable promise that they will keep others from stealing from me is a lose/lose for me.


  

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Re: Why be Surprised that Left Media and Statist Politicians Abuse Women?
Reply #19 - May 10th, 2018 at 10:13am
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Jeff wrote on May 10th, 2018 at 8:58am:
File a complaint then... no wait, without taxation, there won't be anyone you can report an alleged theft to will there? You'll just have to take it in your own hands then.


Is it your serous contention that no government activity can ever be funded except through forced taxation?  Take away their "right" to steal and they won't go away.  They will quickly implement revenue gathering methods that don't include force.


  

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