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The Opposition
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The Downfall of Every Society
May 11th, 2018 at 11:35pm
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I don't want to hear that communism has always failed, because every society has always failed. No matter how successful, they all eventually collapse. Some faster, some slower, but it always happens.

Communism is no paradise, but societies crumbling is not a result of the system they choose. It is an inevitable result of human selection.

In a society of one person, one hundred percent of every individual's efforts will go toward obtaining resources to keep the human population alive.

In a society of two people, this is no longer necessarily true. If one person can get resources out of the other, some percent of the raw effort in the society is now devoted to transferring resources instead of obtaining them. This means there are either less resources for each, or more raw effort expended.

Aggression, taxation, theft... These are not the only ways one person may spend his effort to gain the resources of another. They're just the most common. Deception and addiction are other, equally viable ways.

In a society of three people, where one man grows corn and the other grows wheat, may now support a middle-man who uses his bargaining skills to always get more for what he gives than anyone else can. He is a merchant, and even though he does not aggress, since he does not have to grow food, and provided no one is starving, the two people growing food must now work harder because they must grow enough food for three.

However, this working in a society of just three people is rather silly. The two farmers will notice that they each get less for their crops because of the merchant, and simply trade with each other. Even if the merchant's bargaining skills initially got him out of having to work use his effort toward obtaining resources, the others will notice the result of his wheeling and dealing: They have to grow food, and he doesn't.

Now let's rewind. This is not usually the way this goes. Redistribution of resources almost always happens involuntarily, through taxation or various other forms of banditry. My point is simply that it can happen without aggression.

So let's skip to the point and make this thesis as short as possible.

Remember how I said becoming a specialised resource-transferer wouldn't work in a society of just three people? (Remember also that this remains true no matter which kind of resource-transferer you are. This applies equally to the tyrant as to the merchant.)

Well, when you get dozens of people, people stop noticing and even legitimise those whose effort is devoted to transferring rather than personally obtaining resources. Usually, this will be a tyrant, taxing his people.

But it doesn't matter what he is: The Resource Transferer is the advantaged type. He will fare better than the Resource Obtainer.

If he can tax (or wheel and deal; it absolutely does not matter) just 1% of the resources of the resource obtainers, the resource transferer becomes immensely successful.

The problem is that now, it is so advantageous to become a resource transferer that many who would otherwise be resource obtainers do so.

Every society must fall, because the more successful it becomes, the bigger it gets. And the bigger it gets, the more resources transferers are advantaged over resource obtainers. The more that happens, the less resource obtainers there will be, until the society simply runs out of resources.

...And...

...collapse.

This will happen every time. Taxes will continue to rise until they cannot be paid, or some other method of resource transfer will arise, prosper, and take society down with it.

It does not matter of the resource transfer is aggressive or not. All that matters is that as time goes by, there are more resource transferers and less resource obtainers.

Some parasites can't avoid killing their hosts.

This is one such instance, because it does not reverse. Until the very end - until people start dying from lack of resources - the resource transferer is advantaged over the resource obtainer.

It doesn't matter of you have communism or capitalism.

It doesn't matter if you make a rule that says no one can aggress, because 1) they still will and 2) they will simply find a way to become specialised resource transferers within whatever dumbass rule you make.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #1 - May 12th, 2018 at 8:26am
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The Opposition wrote on May 11th, 2018 at 11:35pm:
I don't want to hear that communism has always failed, because every society has always failed. No matter how successful, they all eventually collapse.
You are confusing governments and empires with societies.

Societies can exist as societies both before and after empires and governments come and go.

Societies do change, but they change in the same way that language and customs change over time, organically, often without anyone noticing the changes, and seldom from top down mandates from governments. (Sometimes governments and empires do eliminate entire societies by murder and war... but that's not a failure of the society.)

The idea of America was to allow a free society that could alter the charter of the government that protected everyone's freedom when it was seen to be necessary to change the government so it could continue to be effective at protecting the Blessings of Liberty. That would allow free Americans to live in a vibrant changing society for as long as the government could be held to it's assigned duties.
« Last Edit: May 12th, 2018 at 5:24pm by Jeff »  
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SkyChief
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #2 - May 12th, 2018 at 12:04pm
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The Opposition wrote on May 11th, 2018 at 11:35pm:
... when you get dozens of people, people stop noticing and even legitimise those whose effort is devoted to transferring rather than personally obtaining resources. Usually, this will be a tyrant, taxing his people...

...And the bigger [a society] gets, the more resources transferers are advantaged over resource obtainers. The more that happens, the less resource obtainers there will be, until the society simply runs out of resources.

“The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money.” - Margaret Thatcher


"In the 1880s, people all over the world looked to America for inspiration. Its very existence was proof that it was possible to have a relatively free and peaceful country. No income tax, no foreign wars, no welfare state, no intrusions on civil liberties."   - Harry Browne
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #3 - May 12th, 2018 at 5:30pm
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SkyChief wrote on May 12th, 2018 at 12:04pm:
“The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money.” - Margaret Thatcher


"In the 1880s, people all over the world looked to America for inspiration. Its very existence was proof that it was possible to have a relatively free and peaceful country. No income tax, no foreign wars, no welfare state, no intrusions on civil liberties."   - Harry Browne
Yes, but then, also in the 1880s, the Progressive Era was gathering steam, and ideas about socialism became very popular.

It was also the time when "scientific mind science" arose, and Lord Keynes timeless and timelessly bad economic theories became all the rage for formerly relatively liberal governments, governments like England's which had already been forced by Englishmen to become more liberal now backslid into power and privilege.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #4 - May 12th, 2018 at 6:00pm
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Jeff wrote on May 12th, 2018 at 5:30pm:
Yes, but then, also in the 1880s, the Progressive Era was gathering steam, and ideas about socialism became very popular.

Still, folks were much better off in the 1880s than they are today as far as civil liberties go.

Reclaiming our lost liberties and freedoms becomes harder and harder as the government seizes more power.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #5 - May 12th, 2018 at 6:17pm
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SkyChief wrote on May 12th, 2018 at 12:04pm:
“The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money.” - Margaret Thatcher


Yes, Maggie, that's a very good example of what I'm talking about: The specialised Resource Transferer.

In fact, that's the best example of what I'm talking about.

However, there are other kinds of specialised Resource Transferers beyond the aggressive, and regardless of whether they are aggressive or not, they will prosper over and above the Resource Obtainer, in any society large enough to support them, and all societies will simply collapse because the Resource Obtainers are disadvantaged in selection until there aren't enough of them to support everyone else.

SkyChief wrote on May 12th, 2018 at 12:04pm:
"In the 1880s, people all over the world looked to America for inspiration. Its very existence was proof that it was possible to have a relatively free and peaceful country. No income tax, no foreign wars, no welfare state, no intrusions on civil liberties."   - Harry Browne


Yes, because it was new. I am positing that all this good stuff (freedom, peace, less taxes) is a consequence of the lower age of the society, meaning there were more Resource Obtainer types and less Resource Transferer types.

Who came to America?

Well what do Resource Obtainers do when they see a society they can no longer support?

Their only options are to starve too, or flee.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #6 - May 12th, 2018 at 6:56pm
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The Opposition wrote on May 12th, 2018 at 6:17pm:
Yes, Maggie, that's a very good example of what I'm talking about: The specialised Resource Transferer.

In fact, that's the best example of what I'm talking about.

However, there are other kinds of specialised Resource Transferers beyond the aggressive, and regardless of whether they are aggressive or not, they will prosper over and above the Resource Obtainer, in any society large enough to support them, and all societies will simply collapse because the Resource Obtainers are disadvantaged in selection until there aren't enough of them to support everyone else.


fooch

If you want to say that there are limits to how much can be extracted from the peasants, just say so, but it's tyrannical governments and their cronies who do the extracting and keep lots of what they take for themselves.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #7 - May 12th, 2018 at 7:03pm
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The Opposition wrote on May 12th, 2018 at 6:17pm:
Yes, because it was new. I am positing that all this good stuff (freedom, peace, less taxes) is a consequence of the lower age of the society, meaning there were more Resource Obtainer types and less Resource Transferer types.

Who came to America?

Lots of people came to America, but we are talking about what happened when people had economic freedom under a limited government of laws in N. America.

The U.S. Constitution is what happened lizard. ("Progressives" immediately began trying to expand the power of government by interpreting the Constitution. No one could see how subsidizing a canal in NY benefited everyone in common, but "progressives" convinced Courts that it was for the general welfare of the U.S. to have more infrastructure, even if it could only be done in NY to start. It was the same type of thinking that led to "What's good for GM is good for the Nation!").

Edit: It didn't happen in S. or C. America or on the Caribbean islands.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #8 - May 12th, 2018 at 7:29pm
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Jeff wrote on May 12th, 2018 at 6:56pm:
If you want to say that there are limits to how much can be extracted from the peasants, just say so,


Fine, I hereby say so.

Tyranny is not the only way resources are extracted from peasants, however. It's just the most common because force is easiest to use when force is not precluded.

When force is precluded, the Resource Transferer type will simply cheat and use force anyway, or use something else, like deception or bargaining skill.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #9 - May 13th, 2018 at 8:42am
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The Opposition wrote on May 12th, 2018 at 7:29pm:
Fine, I hereby say so.

Tyranny is not the only way resources are extracted from peasants, however. It's just the most common because force is easiest to use when force is not precluded.

When force is precluded, the Resource Transferer type will simply cheat and use force anyway, or use something else, like deception or bargaining skill.
Is your contention that "capitalists" are more clever than anyone else, or that someone is forcing you to buy their products?

If some individual or company is forcing you to do something you don't want to do, that's illegal, file a complaint.

If you are just making bad deals all the time, ask for help or do some product or vendor research on the internet before you close the deal.
  
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