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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Downfall of Every Society (Read 422 times)
Jeff
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #10 - May 13th, 2018 at 5:27pm
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The Opposition wrote on May 11th, 2018 at 11:35pm:
So let's skip to the point and make this thesis as short as possible.

If he can tax (or wheel and deal; it absolutely does not matter)

Amidst all that shit, I found this. Angry

The power to tax is identical to a free trade between equals, that both agree to? No, it's not.

How long have you been off your meds? I'm worried for the safety of your Mother...

Did you buy her a pistol and lessons?
  
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The Opposition
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #11 - May 13th, 2018 at 5:57pm
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Jeff wrote on May 13th, 2018 at 5:27pm:
The power to tax is identical to a free trade between equals, that both agree to? No, it's not.


Did I say it was? NO!

One is morally wrong, the other is morally fine.

It is possible (though not likely) to do only moral things that lead to something bad.

Societies fall because Resource Transferers prosper and grow in number over Resource Obtainers until there are none of the latter left and everyone starves.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #12 - May 13th, 2018 at 6:52pm
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The Opposition wrote on May 13th, 2018 at 5:57pm:
One is morally wrong, the other is morally fine.

Which do you think is morally wrong? Free trading?
  
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The Opposition
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #13 - May 13th, 2018 at 10:22pm
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Jeff wrote on May 13th, 2018 at 6:52pm:
Which do you think is morally wrong? Free trading?


Taxation and force are wrong. Merchanting is fine.

Obviously wheeling and dealing to make money by buying something for a dollar and selling it for two is not morally wrong.

However, if a society supports a number of pure merchants who do not generate resources themselves, and only buy things so they can sell them for more, the Resource Obtainers must produce more resources now than if those merchants didn't exist.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Don_G
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #14 - May 13th, 2018 at 10:28pm
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The Opposition wrote on May 13th, 2018 at 10:22pm:
Obviously wheeling and dealing to make money by buying something for a dollar and selling it for two is not morally wrong.



Not always so. Sometimes the good of the people is more important than making a 100% profit.

Decent people understand that and so don't need to be told.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #15 - May 14th, 2018 at 8:04am
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The Opposition wrote on May 13th, 2018 at 10:22pm:
Taxation and force are wrong. Merchanting is fine.

Obviously wheeling and dealing to make money by buying something for a dollar and selling it for two is not morally wrong.

However, if a society supports a number of pure merchants who do not generate resources themselves, and only buy things so they can sell them for more, the Resource Obtainers must produce more resources now than if those merchants didn't exist.
You seem to be getting confused about producers and sellers and buyers, probably because you're trying to make up a new language?

Wholesalers and other sorts of re-sellers exist because they serve a useful purpose in a free economy. Economically literate people understand that and don't need to be told.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #16 - May 14th, 2018 at 8:07am
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Not always so. Sometimes the good of the people is more important than making a 100% profit.


The "good of the people" is best served when people are free, including the freedom to engage in trade and make the best deals you can, both as a buyer and a seller.

Economically literate people understand that and don't need to be told.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #17 - May 14th, 2018 at 8:47am
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I saw this this morning, Italy is going to lower taxes and spend more money all at the same time-

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-14/italy-populists-go-all-in-on-...

The Italian economy is not good now, and this is the "populist" solution, guaranteed incomes and low taxes.

It won't work. They need to massively reduce the size and scope of their government and reduce it's reckless spending.
  
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BobK71
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #18 - May 14th, 2018 at 9:32am
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Destructive competition (of the resource-transferer-vs-obtainer sort you mention) becomes a problem when you don't have a true community.  Since the limit of each person's social circle is around 150 people, that was the size of the average Medieval village and the limit of true communities.  As Aldous Huxley points out, humans are closer to wolves than ants.  Large-scale societies are not in our genes.

This doesn't necessarily mean a village of 150 is a paradise -- it only means such a community will have enough social cohesion to provide for the basic needs of all members -- and to do it happily.

The problem with having this basic human nature is, of course, that a ruler who can muster a faux 'community' of more people, by using artificial constructs like patriotism, bribery, pumped up institutions, etc. can only inspire other leaders to follow suit.

So today we settle into anonymous, large groupings of people, called nations, whose members are strangers to each other.  (At the 'top' of the global order, under the artificial wealth created by human-issued money, even families and close friends can turn into strangers.)  This becomes fertile soil for destructive competition, and little wonder that all modern societies will fail.

I don't see any solution of this dilemma, short of near-universal human awareness of this problem.
  
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #19 - May 14th, 2018 at 9:43am
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Jeff wrote on May 14th, 2018 at 8:47am:
I saw this this morning, Italy is going to lower taxes and spend more money at the same time...

It won't work.

No it won't.   When you cut taxes and don't cut spending, you have deficit spending.  This is why Trump's Tax cuts are  such a disaster. The measly spending cuts he proposed won't even come close to offsetting the massive Tax cuts.

It's amazing that such a simple economic concept escapes so many people.

This is 5th-grade economics.
  
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