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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Downfall of Every Society (Read 190 times)
Billie
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #20 - May 14th, 2018 at 10:31am
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BobK71 wrote on May 14th, 2018 at 9:32am:
Destructive competition (of the resource-transferer-vs-obtainer sort you mention) becomes a problem when you don't have a true community.
Competition is necessarily destructive. When I start a business that can produce a better product  than yours and sell it for less money, you will go out of business unless you can respond to the new challenge.

If I invent electricity and light bulbs, your gas and kerosene lamp business is going to me mostly destroyed.

Problems arise when there is government interference. If your gas lamp company is politically favored, a crony business, regulations may be enacted to prevent me from selling my new and "unsafe" electric light bulbs.
  
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Billie
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #21 - May 14th, 2018 at 10:33am
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SkyChief wrote on May 14th, 2018 at 9:43am:
No it won't.   When you cut taxes and don't cut spending, you have deficit spending.  This is why Trump's Tax cuts are  such a disaster. The measly spending cuts he proposed won't even come close to offsetting the massive Tax cuts.

It's amazing that such a simple economic concept escapes so many people.

This is 5th-grade economics.
If the intention is to collapse the European "capitalist" economy and throw Europe into chaos so that a Revolution can occur, people who know the results will do it anyway if the result they seek is collapse and Revolution.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #22 - May 14th, 2018 at 12:32pm
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Billie wrote on May 14th, 2018 at 10:33am:
If the intention is to collapse the European "capitalist" economy and throw Europe into chaos so that a Revolution can occur, people who know the results will do it anyway if the result they seek is collapse and Revolution.

How would collapse and chaos in Europe benefit Italy?  If Italy wants out of the EU, all they need to do is walk away.
  
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Don_G
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #23 - May 14th, 2018 at 12:49pm
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Billie wrote on May 14th, 2018 at 10:31am:
Competition is necessarily destructive. When I start a business that can produce a better product  than yours and sell it for less money, you will go out of business unless you can respond to the new challenge.

If I invent electricity and light bulbs, your gas and kerosene lamp business is going to me mostly destroyed.

Problems arise when there is government interference. If your gas lamp company is politically favored, a crony business, regulations may be enacted to prevent me from selling my new and "unsafe" electric light bulbs.


..... before they explode, kill or blind innocent people, or result in houses burning down.

Regulations are good for racists and hillbillies too!
  
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Billie
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #24 - May 14th, 2018 at 2:29pm
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SkyChief wrote on May 14th, 2018 at 12:32pm:
How would collapse and chaos in Europe benefit Italy?  If Italy wants out of the EU, all they need to do is walk away. 
Leaving the EU won't help Italy either, nor will infusions of "money" from the World Bank or the European Central bank. What would help Italy is to drastically cut the size of government and government spending... But Italy has a very "progressive" government, and even the new "populists" have "progressive" ideas like a guaranteed income.

There are people in the world Chief, who believe that a Revolution is essential to clearing the way for the creation of a "socialist system", and revolutions thrive on collapse and chaos.
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #25 - May 14th, 2018 at 4:21pm
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The Opposition wrote on May 11th, 2018 at 11:35pm:
In a society of one person, one hundred percent of every individual's efforts will go toward obtaining resources to keep the human population alive.

In a society of two people, this is no longer necessarily true. If one person can get resources out of the other, some percent of the raw effort in the society is now devoted to transferring resources instead of obtaining them. This means there are either less resources for each, or more raw effort expended.

Aggression, taxation, theft... These are not the only ways one person may spend his effort to gain the resources of another. They're just the most common. Deception and addiction are other, equally viable ways.

In a society of three people, where one man grows corn and the other grows wheat, may now support a middle-man who uses his bargaining skills to always get more for what he gives than anyone else can. He is a merchant, and even though he does not aggress, since he does not have to grow food, and provided no one is starving, the two people growing food must now work harder because they must grow enough food for three.

However, this working in a society of just three people is rather silly. The two farmers will notice that they each get less for their crops because of the merchant, and simply trade with each other. Even if the merchant's bargaining skills initially got him out of having to work use his effort toward obtaining resources, the others will notice the result of his wheeling and dealing: They have to grow food, and he doesn't.

Now let's rewind. This is not usually the way this goes. Redistribution of resources almost always happens involuntarily, through taxation or various other forms of banditry. My point is simply that it can happen without aggression.

So let's skip to the point and make this thesis as short as possible.

Remember how I said becoming a specialised resource-transferer wouldn't work in a society of just three people? (Remember also that this remains true no matter which kind of resource-transferer you are. This applies equally to the tyrant as to the merchant.)

Well, when you get dozens of people, people stop noticing and even legitimise those whose effort is devoted to transferring rather than personally obtaining resources. Usually, this will be a tyrant, taxing his people.

But it doesn't matter what he is: The Resource Transferer is the advantaged type. He will fare better than the Resource Obtainer.

If he can tax (or wheel and deal; it absolutely does not matter) just 1% of the resources of the resource obtainers, the resource transferer becomes immensely successful.

The problem is that now, it is so advantageous to become a resource transferer that many who would otherwise be resource obtainers do so.

Every society must fall, because the more successful it becomes, the bigger it gets. And the bigger it gets, the more resources transferers are advantaged over resource obtainers. The more that happens, the less resource obtainers there will be, until the society simply runs out of resources.

...And...

...collapse.

This will happen every time. Taxes will continue to rise until they cannot be paid, or some other method of resource transfer will arise, prosper, and take society down with it.

It does not matter of the resource transfer is aggressive or not. All that matters is that as time goes by, there are more resource transferers and less resource obtainers.

Some parasites can't avoid killing their hosts.

This is one such instance, because it does not reverse. Until the very end - until people start dying from lack of resources - the resource transferer is advantaged over the resource obtainer.

It doesn't matter of you have communism or capitalism.

It doesn't matter if you make a rule that says no one can aggress, because 1) they still will and 2) they will simply find a way to become specialised resource transferers within whatever dumbass rule you make.


You may well be right.  But before I accept that permanent pessimism, I'd first want to see how a nation with a truly libertarian constitution that is enforced and enforceable would fare.  There would still be "specialized wealth transferers," but the majority would be productive workers.  Absent a government not only avoiding force, but preventing it from being used aggressively, those transferers would either have to be providing a useful service, such as making loans or buying commodity futures or else be so clever that no one catches on.
  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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Billie
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #26 - May 14th, 2018 at 5:19pm
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SnarkySack wrote on May 14th, 2018 at 4:21pm:
You may well be right.  But before I accept that permanent pessimism, I'd first want to see how a nation with a truly libertarian constitution that is enforced and enforceable would fare.  There would still be "specialized wealth transferers,"...
Sorry no.

Truly libertarian societies form limited governments with enumerated powers to try to stop those ""specialized wealth transferers,"" from ever happening, and put the thieves in jail when they are caught.

Did you just change your meds again so soon? Shocked
  
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The Opposition
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #27 - May 15th, 2018 at 12:49am
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Billie wrote on May 14th, 2018 at 5:19pm:
Truly libertarian societies form limited governments with enumerated powers to try to stop those ""specialized wealth transferers,"" from ever happening,


No society can stop specialised Resource Transferer types from arising and prospering over Resource Obtainers.

All a society can do is stop individual methods of resource transfer. The Resource Transferers will find other methods.
  

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Billie
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #28 - May 15th, 2018 at 9:03am
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The Opposition wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 12:49am:
No society can stop specialised Resource Transferer types from arising and prospering over Resource Obtainers.

All a society can do is stop individual methods of resource transfer. The Resource Transferers will find other methods.
Right. No amount of laws and policing will stop theft and assault and murder completely, but good policing results in less theft.

The U.S. Constitution was specifically designed to prevent the transfer of wealth by government.

England's crony capitalist government engaged in lots of wealth transfers, and Americans intended to stop it by making taxation difficult and not granting any power to reward specific people or groups of people. Money drawn from the treasury could only be spent for specific enumerated purposes which would serve the nation in it's entirety.

Taking money from some people and giving it to others is what the King and his Parliament did. Their intention was to make Britain Great (while enriching the government and it's cronies), but a statement that "Transfers of wealth serve the nation because the government is wise" does not change a subsidy to GE or Boeing into a legal act under the Constitution.
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #29 - May 15th, 2018 at 1:17pm
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Billie wrote on May 14th, 2018 at 5:19pm:
Sorry no.

Truly libertarian societies form limited governments with enumerated powers to try to stop those ""specialized wealth transferers,"" from ever happening, and put the thieves in jail when they are caught.

Did you just change your meds again so soon? Shocked


I was actually speaking of specialized wealth tranferrers such as speculators, investors, lenders, etc. 

But feel free to argue with the voices in your head rather than my actual words.


  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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