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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Downfall of Every Society (Read 887 times)
Jeff
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #30 - May 15th, 2018 at 2:09pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 1:17pm:
I was actually speaking of specialized wealth tranferrers such as speculators, investors, lenders, etc. 
That's obviously why I misunderstood.

Legitimately making money by participating in the economy is not a "wealth transfer".

Generally it's called "earning money".

If you are talking about crony businesses, that another thing, but you have to specify.


  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #31 - May 15th, 2018 at 4:17pm
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Jeff wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 2:09pm:
That's obviously why I misunderstood.

Legitimately making money by participating in the economy is not a "wealth transfer".

Generally it's called "earning money".

If you are talking about crony businesses, that another thing, but you have to specify.




Yeah, it's confusing because Oppo is using his own term, "specialized wealth tranferers" to cover both taxers and lenders, which is not the same thing at all. 

It's a riff on Marx' idea that factory owners contribute nothing, but just live of the work products of the laborers.  In fact, they provide the very important function of management, which is always most efficient when done by owners who have the most stake in success.



  

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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #32 - May 15th, 2018 at 4:41pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 4:17pm:
Yeah, it's confusing...
You are deeply confused if you think earning money is a "wealth transfer".

How long have you been a grad student? Couldn't you have put all those years to good use learning something?
  
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #33 - May 16th, 2018 at 4:07pm
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Jeff wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 4:41pm:
You are deeply confused if you think earning money is a "wealth transfer".

How long have you been a grad student? Couldn't you have put all those years to good use learning something?


Yes, I should have gotten a doctorate in something useful, like religion.

  

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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #34 - May 16th, 2018 at 6:37pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 4:07pm:
Yes, I should have gotten a doctorate in something useful, like religion.

Studying some economics, or better yet political economy, would probably be most helpful to you.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #35 - May 16th, 2018 at 11:56pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 4:17pm:
Yeah, it's confusing because Oppo is using his own term, "specialized wealth resource tranferers" to cover both taxers and lenders, which is not the same thing at all. 


I know it's not. But they share a common thread I believe is very important:

No matter which specialised Resource Transferer you add to an economy, you simply can't argue away the flat fact that the Resource Obtainers must now grow more corn to support them.

This is where the limit to building an upside-down tower lies. Maybe the Resource Transferers also push that limit up by something else they're doing (maybe somehow making growing corn easier) but they can't push it up infinitely.

Snarky Sack wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 4:17pm:
It's a riff on Marx' idea that factory owners contribute nothing, but just live of the work products of the laborers.  In fact, they provide the very important function of management, which is always most efficient when done by owners who have the most stake in success.


I'm not saying they don't provide something useful.

I'm saying society cannot support the trend it creates that causes them to increase.

Unlike Marx, I am not making a moral judgment of any sort against factory owners, money lenders, paper pushers, welfare queens, bureaucrats, or professional beggars.

I am simply saying that Resource Transferers of all sorts (voluntary or not) are at an advantage over Resource Obtainers. This advantage causes the Resource Transferer type to increase until the system collapses.
« Last Edit: May 17th, 2018 at 2:22am by The Opposition »  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #36 - May 17th, 2018 at 7:07am
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Snarky Sack wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 4:17pm:
Yeah, it's confusing because Oppo is using his own term, "specialized wealth tranferers" to cover both taxers and lenders, which is not the same thing at all. 

It's a riff on Marx' idea that factory owners contribute nothing, but just live of the work products of the laborers.  In fact, they provide the very important function of management, which is always most efficient when done by owners who have the most stake in success.



Yes, and not only that, people often go into debt to build factories, assuming risk of loss if the factory turns to to be a money loser.

If workers want to collectively own the means of production, they should get together and build their own factories, paying for them with their own money and assuming the risk themselves. In the U.S., they are free to do that.

People who believe managers don't work (it's true that some of them don't, which is a problem for owners) should start and manage their own small business.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #37 - May 17th, 2018 at 11:36pm
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Don't forget that most factory workers, in my classification scheme, are Resource Transferers and not Resource Obtainers.

They, also, are people who must be supported by the economy, while not actually adding more resources to it. They transform and transfer; they do not obtain.

The farmer must grow more corn to support them, and the factory owner.

Again, maybe they're doing something that helps the farmer grow ten times as much corn for a tiny smidgen of the effort. Even if they are, this cannot continue indefinitely. There is some logical limit on how much corn the planet Earth can grow and some point at which additional Resource Transferers place a pure additional burden on the farmer.

Because Resource Transferers have advantages over Resource Obtainers, the transferers will increase until well beyond that point, wherever it lies.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #38 - May 18th, 2018 at 6:33am
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The Opposition wrote on May 17th, 2018 at 11:36pm:
Don't forget that most factory workers, in my classification scheme, are Resource Transferers and not Resource Obtainers.


Workers are productive, they produce something, otherwise they get fired.

In exchange for what they produce, they get paid...

Have I understood you correctly so far?
  
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BobK71
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #39 - Oct 17th, 2018 at 8:34pm
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What if the Resource Transferers are smart enough to limit entry into their ranks and/or put a limit to the quantity of their take?

I have trouble believing in societal collapse -- I rather believe in societal evolution.  (Not sure if you heard of Hegel's dialectic.)  Collapse is just not supported by history.  Overall, human population and wealth kept growing from millennia ago.

If what you mean is that every society will run up against the limits of its operating system, begins to stagnate (or begins to self-destruct if it's a poorly designed one) and has to look for a new paradigm (again, a Hegel thing,) that I believe.

Now if you really mean to say no society is perfect or even perfectible (remember Francis Fukuyama's 'End of History'?!) that I would totally agree with.  All we can do is to figure out one main problem at a time.

It seems to me that the idea of an exponentially increasing take by the Resource Transferers is peculiar to our age, and not present, for example in a feudal society.  The way the centrally planned money system incentivizes individual members of the elites to gorge on money by destabilizing the system, and thereby forcing the central authorities to come up with some new trick every time to kick the can down the street but store up even more trouble by having an even worse set of incentives, seems unique to the modern global system.

But even here, the system has a built in self preservation device: the boom and bust cycle, large and small.  The large ones will wipe out all the financial asset values, so the system can start anew, before things get so far out of hand that the entire system is threatened.  (So I don't buy stocks at certain times!)

Good read, thanks.
  
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