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The Opposition
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #40 - Oct 17th, 2018 at 9:57pm
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BobK71 wrote on Oct 17th, 2018 at 8:34pm:
What if the Resource Transferers are smart enough to limit entry into their ranks and/or put a limit to the quantity of their take?


This is the very thing I was wondering if I should put in my OP but decided against.

Yes, if they were successful at doing that, it would stop the process I'm describing.

The trouble is that every man-animal desires one thing above all else, in his very nucleotides: Reproductive success, and not just that, comparative reproductive success. In other words, he won't be happy if he passes on his genes twice and the average is to pass on your genes eleven times.

So our elite can do one of two things: He can use his status to mate with commoners, or he can make more elites.

If he mates with commoners, the offspring won't be able to compete. The elite's genes have become accustomed to every treatment of sickness and every comfort. When you have that much money, you don't die because you can't warm yourself up or because you get sick.

If he makes more elites, the limit you spoke of is broken.

BobK71 wrote on Oct 17th, 2018 at 8:34pm:
If what you mean is that every society will run up against the limits of its operating system, begins to stagnate (or begins to self-destruct if it's a poorly designed one) and has to look for a new paradigm (again, a Hegel thing,) that I believe.

Now if you really mean to say no society is perfect or even perfectible (remember Francis Fukuyama's 'End of History'?!) that I would totally agree with.  All we can do is to figure out one main problem at a time.

It seems to me that the idea of an exponentially increasing take by the Resource Transferers is peculiar to our age, and not present, for example in a feudal society.  The way the centrally planned money system incentivizes individual members of the elites to gorge on money by destabilizing the system, and thereby forcing the central authorities to come up with some new trick every time to kick the can down the street but store up even more trouble by having an even worse set of incentives, seems unique to the modern global system.


I think the problem is coming to the forefront because their ranks and needs are ballooning, and every day, they require more and more.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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BobK71
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #41 - Oct 23rd, 2018 at 9:45am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 17th, 2018 at 9:57pm:
This is the very thing I was wondering if I should put in my OP but decided against.

Yes, if they were successful at doing that, it would stop the process I'm describing.

The trouble is that every man-animal desires one thing above all else, in his very nucleotides: Reproductive success, and not just that, comparative reproductive success. In other words, he won't be happy if he passes on his genes twice and the average is to pass on your genes eleven times.

So our elite can do one of two things: He can use his status to mate with commoners, or he can make more elites.

If he mates with commoners, the offspring won't be able to compete. The elite's genes have become accustomed to every treatment of sickness and every comfort. When you have that much money, you don't die because you can't warm yourself up or because you get sick.

If he makes more elites, the limit you spoke of is broken.


I think the problem is coming to the forefront because their ranks and needs are ballooning, and every day, they require more and more.


I don't know.  There's talk about how big the Rothschild clan has become, and how the wealth is seriously diluted by now.

But, again, I do think the take by the elites grows rapidly before each crash.  On top of that, if you consider the crashes to be blips (including the Great Depression,) the multi-century pattern is an increasing take.

That is because the nature of their system is not outright robbery, but addicting the entire society to a mechanism that primarily benefits them.

That is, we must work hard and produce the best luxuries that they buy at their whims, or most of us will have no jobs.  If the system breaks down in any way, for sure, we'll have no jobs.  We keep voting for the system.

What this causes over the long term is to more and more outright rigging of the system to benefit the top people via financial manipulation or repression.  (That central authorities buy stocks to prop up the market is barely disguised at this point.)  No wonder, the total amount of unearned wealth is always increasing.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #42 - Oct 23rd, 2018 at 10:55am
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BobK71 wrote on Oct 23rd, 2018 at 9:45am:
That is because the nature of their system is not outright robbery, but addicting the entire society to a mechanism that primarily benefits them.

That is, we must work hard and produce the best luxuries that they buy at their whims, or most of us will have no jobs.  If the system breaks down in any way, for sure, we'll have no jobs.  We keep voting for the system.

What this causes over the long term is to more and more outright rigging of the system to benefit the top people via financial manipulation or repression.  (That central authorities buy stocks to prop up the market is barely disguised at this point.)  No wonder, the total amount of unearned wealth is always increasing.


Now again, none of what they're doing is aggression, and thus I fully support every one of their actions, but I still think it's okay to talk about the causes and the result, as well as a system without these behaviours.

I think it started at the industrial revolution when farmers left their land for better pay in factory jobs. When they had no more land, the factory owners no longer had to offer better pay. There was now a class of permanent tenants forced to work for others, to live.

I would be interested to see what a system would be like that required everyone to hold enough land to be self-sufficient, and prevented that land from ever being taken away. Two babies apiece for each female, no more. Triplets or greater get reduced in the womb. Children must inherit. (So go ahead and give it all to your daughter and her husband if your other kid's in-laws are doing the same.) The land can't be taken away.

Obviously this system is aggressive and wrong but I would be interested to see what it could be like.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #43 - Oct 23rd, 2018 at 12:22pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 23rd, 2018 at 10:55am:
I think it started at the industrial revolution when farmers left their land for better pay in factory jobs.
It wasn't the farmers who left, it was the farm hands, because machinery replaced them on the farm.

Farmers by the way, work for others, just a bit more indirectly than hourly and salaried employees, and the farm hands who left the farms usually didn't own any more property as farm hands than they did as factory workers.

Factory owners also work for others, trying hard to produce products that others will buy. If the factory owners don't do a good job, they get 'fired' i.e. they go out of business and lose their jobs as factory owners.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #44 - Oct 23rd, 2018 at 12:28pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 23rd, 2018 at 10:55am:
I would be interested to see what a system would be like that required everyone to hold enough land to be self-sufficient...
How much land do you think it would take for you to be "self-sufficient" by using that land?

Why are you always interested in proposing authoritarian "solutions" based entirely on fantasy?

BTW, two children per family is not enough to keep the population from steadily declining, unless nobody ever dies. Cheesy
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #45 - Oct 23rd, 2018 at 5:48pm
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The Opposition wrote on May 11th, 2018 at 11:35pm:
I don't want to hear that communism has always failed, because every society has always failed.
This is your argument for communism?

It's very weak...
  
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BobK71
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #46 - Oct 24th, 2018 at 10:56am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 23rd, 2018 at 10:55am:
Now again, none of what they're doing is aggression, and thus I fully support every one of their actions, but I still think it's okay to talk about the causes and the result, as well as a system without these behaviours.

I think we can respectfully agree to totally disagree on this point.  I imagine this point of view might not be a good conversation starter with a victim of Bernie Madoff!

The Opposition wrote on Oct 23rd, 2018 at 10:55am:
I think it started at the industrial revolution when farmers left their land for better pay in factory jobs. When they had no more land, the factory owners no longer had to offer better pay. There was now a class of permanent tenants forced to work for others, to live.

I would be interested to see what a system would be like that required everyone to hold enough land to be self-sufficient, and prevented that land from ever being taken away. Two babies apiece for each female, no more. Triplets or greater get reduced in the womb. Children must inherit. (So go ahead and give it all to your daughter and her husband if your other kid's in-laws are doing the same.) The land can't be taken away.

Obviously this system is aggressive and wrong but I would be interested to see what it could be like.


I think you might have found the best example so far of what I think of economic distortions by the modern system.

Supply and demand were originally matched in the agricultural economy.  Now, the effective use of capital (ultimately due to money creation to benefit the elites) has induced innovations that both mechanized farming and made industrial products possible.  Most jobs are now industrial.

Most people would call this progress, but look deeper.  (First recognize that this is not the work of the free market, as state-bank-created money is at the heart of the change.)  Industrial products make for a nicer life, but are not necessities like food.  This distortion causes economic demand to be more fragile, and when, for a variety of reasons, the periodic financial crises came, it was the public and especially the poor who suffered.

Now we must do 'whatever it takes' (literally the words of Mario Draghi!) to keep the system afloat.  But the only way this system can achieve that is to make the economic distortions (and its twin sibling, inequality) even worse, which will make the next crisis worse.

For example, the Western economy has gone from being dependent on the American consumer to being dependent on the *lucky* American consumer over the last few decades.  One tycoon refusing to buy a corporate jet might one day be enough to cause a cascading collapse of demand and the system.

We would ideally have an economy where any 'surplus demand' (ie beyond our needs for basic survival) had myriad and firm ties to our social world and happiness.  This is what the modern system is best at eroding, and the net effect is 'progress' that is devoid of happiness.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #47 - Oct 24th, 2018 at 11:17am
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BobK71 wrote on Oct 24th, 2018 at 10:56am:
I think we can respectfully agree to totally disagree on this point.  I imagine this point of view might not be a good conversation starter with a victim of Bernie Madoff!


Just look how hard the libertarians will ridicule me just for realising how it works, even when I'm not condemning the actions.

It makes me want to agree with you, because they believe their control is broken by mere knowledge. They believe the NAP would never fly if people knew what those following it are doing, and causing.

BobK71 wrote on Oct 24th, 2018 at 10:56am:
I think you might have found the best example so far of what I think of economic distortions by the modern system.


Most people would rather be slaves to the weather than slaves to another person's whims. The wind may come and blow away your crops, but there's no malice in it. Your average HR power-tripper? Meh, not so much.

One of the common threads in your posts is the curse of overspecialisation. Think of a panda, who depends on bamboo and only bamboo, then think of a rat - the super-generalist, the perennially self-sufficient.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #48 - Oct 24th, 2018 at 2:09pm
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BobK71 wrote on Oct 24th, 2018 at 10:56am:
I think you might have found the best example so far of what I think of economic distortions by the modern system.

Supply and demand were originally matched in the agricultural economy.
What gives you that idea?
  
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Re: The Downfall of Every Society
Reply #49 - Oct 24th, 2018 at 2:13pm
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BobK71 wrote on Oct 24th, 2018 at 10:56am:
Most people would call this progress, but look deeper.  (First recognize that this is not the work of the free market, as state-bank-created money is at the heart of the change.)  Industrial products make for a nicer life, but are not necessities like food.
It's nice to have warm serviceable clothing in the winter... And milled lumber and shingles and windows and doors and siding are all products of industry these days. Even indoor plumbing! But that's not really a necessity unless you live in a city or large town, or even a small town.
  
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