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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Stealing Workers' Money (Read 233 times)
SkyChief
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Re: Stealing Workers' Money
Reply #10 - May 14th, 2018 at 12:08pm
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Sicklers Dink wrote on May 14th, 2018 at 11:30am:
The LP wouldn't exist if a fair formula for taxing all the people existed. That's what the libertarian party really wants but Americans have been brainwashed into thinking that it's stealing money from the wealthy to make them pay their fair share.

When the government takes wealth or property from a citizen (income tax), there must be "due process".   This means that the person who's wealth is being taken MUST have an opprtunity to appeal the seizure. 

The right of "due process" is guaranteed by the 5th Amendment in the Bill Of Rights.

By seizing wealth or assets of an individual , the IRS has violated the 5th Amendment:

"No person shall ... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."


Sicklers Dink wrote on May 14th, 2018 at 11:30am:
That fair share could be as high as 80% taxation in the extreme and all the way down to zero in the case of the poor.

It also gives the poor an incentive to try to earn money!

Re-distribution of wealth to the poor is never "an incentive to try to earn money".
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Stealing Workers' Money
Reply #11 - May 15th, 2018 at 2:32am
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This just in...

If it was never yours...

...Then nobody stole it from you.

  

Making Sci-Fi great again since 2063.

Not taking Jeff seriously until he admits this is animal abuse (which he says should be illegal): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE-IT7_CaE4
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Jeff
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Re: Stealing Workers' Money
Reply #12 - May 15th, 2018 at 9:25am
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Sicklers Dink wrote on May 14th, 2018 at 11:30am:
Calling it theft is extremist nonsense, but allowing the very wealthy to control government is akin to theft.


The beauty of the system of government designed by the Constitution is that nobody can control the government, so nobody can get rich by controlling the government.

Changes to the Constitution by "progressives" have allowed the U.S. government to be controlled rather that having the Constitution control the people who work for us in the government.

The idea was that even lawmakers would be "public servants" under the control of the Constitution which was ultimately controlled by the People.

Under the Constitution as it was designed, rich people wouldn't bother to buy Senators and Representatives because there was no power granted to the government by which it could help out the rich person who was trying to buy influence.

"Progressives" changed that fundamentally when they placed the government in control of the people and removed the limitations on how the government could tax and how it could spend.

Now, under the "progressive" constitution, it pays to buy influence with the government.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Stealing Workers' Money
Reply #13 - May 15th, 2018 at 9:29am
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SkyChief wrote on May 14th, 2018 at 12:08pm:
When the government takes wealth or property from a citizen (income tax), there must be "due process".   This means that the person who's wealth is being taken MUST have an opprtunity to appeal the seizure. 

The IRS has an Appeals Office. If you don't like the result of your appeal to them, you can sue in Federal Court. There's your opportunity Chief.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Stealing Workers' Money
Reply #14 - May 15th, 2018 at 9:29am
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The Opposition wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 2:32am:
This just in...

If it was never yours...

...Then nobody stole it from you.

Do you have a point, or are you just trolling?

I assume you're on about some sort of "everything is owned in common, private property doesn't really exist" thing?
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Stealing Workers' Money
Reply #15 - May 15th, 2018 at 11:58am
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Jeff wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 9:29am:
The IRS has an Appeals Office. If you don't like the result of your appeal to them, you can sue in Federal Court. There's your opportunity Chief.

A lawsuit in Federal Court is not due process.  Due process presumes that the accused is innocent UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.

With due process, the accuser must PROVE that accused is guilty of violating a Law. This is always the case.  A defendant never has to prove his/her innocence.

With the IRS however,  taxpayers are presumed guilty, and penalties are assessed without any due process.

See the problem here?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Stealing Workers' Money
Reply #16 - May 15th, 2018 at 1:58pm
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SkyChief wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 11:58am:
A lawsuit in Federal Court is not due process.  Due process presumes that the accused is innocent UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.

With due process, the accuser must PROVE that accused is guilty of violating a Law. This is always the case.  A defendant never has to prove his/her innocence.

With the IRS however,  taxpayers are presumed guilty, and penalties are assessed without any due process.

See the problem here?
People are arrested for stealing on probable cause and reasonable cause, then juries and trials comprise the required  due process. You may have to wait in jail...

Taxation is a power granted by the Constitution.

If the IRS sends you a deficiency notice, you have a right to appeal and sue if necessary.

I agree that you should not have to pay the alleged deficiency prior to being permitted to sue, but that doesn't make taxation illegal.

A return to legal taxation, where Direct taxes are apportioned and Indirect taxes are uniform is more important.


  
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SkyChief
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Re: Stealing Workers' Money
Reply #17 - May 15th, 2018 at 2:09pm
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Jeff wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 1:58pm:
A return to legal taxation, where Direct taxes are apportioned and Indirect taxes are uniform is more important.

Isn't it ironic that the impetus for Independence and the American Revolution was to escape the tyrannical Taxes imposed by King George.

Government has once again gotten out-of-control.  The natives are getting restless.  Maybe time for the American Revolution 2.0?

I'm joking, of course.  We are a long way from that.  But as taxes increase, the possibility becomes more real.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Stealing Workers' Money
Reply #18 - May 15th, 2018 at 2:19pm
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SkyChief wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 2:09pm:
Isn't it ironic that the impetus for Independence and the American Revolution was to escape the tyrannical Taxes imposed by King George.

Government has once again gotten out-of-control.  The natives are getting restless.  Maybe time for the American Revolution 2.0?

I'm joking, of course.  We are a long way from that.  But as taxes increase, the possibility becomes more real.
Do you see the utility of requiring that Direct taxes be apportioned and Indirect taxes be uniform? It makes if very difficult for the government to collect many taxes. That's why it was so important to "progressives" to evade those limitations. How else could they lay a progressive tax on wages and salaries?
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Stealing Workers' Money
Reply #19 - May 15th, 2018 at 5:12pm
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Jeff wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 2:19pm:
Do you see the utility of requiring that Direct taxes be apportioned and Indirect taxes be uniform? It makes if very difficult for the government to collect many taxes. That's why it was so important to "progressives" to evade those limitations. How else could they lay a progressive tax on wages and salaries?

Billie, I'm a libertarian.  I cannot ever be convinced that Income Taxes are necessary - apportioned, or uniform, or neatly tied up with a fancy pink bow on top.

I oppose all forms of taxation, but concede that some taxes are necessary to sustain an essential government.  The government functioned just fine before income tax were made into law.

That says a lot.  Income taxes are what enabled the government to grow into the gigantic behemoth that it is today. It enabled corporate welfare, it enabled the Military to establish over 800 bases scattered across the globe for military intervention into foreign affairs.   It enabled reckless spending.

Many ills could be remedied by eliminating the Income Tax.

"The first step in restoring liberty is to restore the limitations on government" - SkyChief
  
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